Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[FlareStar]

Some modders managed to mod ChatGPT into Bannerlord, and results are pretty great already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akceKOLtytw

What are chances for AI being integrated into DF, for, for example, book/poetry writing? Now, I understand that during world gen there is a massive amount of books, but it can be doable to generate a story dynamically, like, when you check out a squire written by someone, it gives you usual description, but also gives you button to "read the materials", which will generate actual contents of it.

[Moeteru]

It should be possible with dfhack, but I'd be very, very surprised if it ever makes it into the main game.
Can you imagine how hard it would be to censor it enough to satisfy all the stakeholders DF now has?

[jipehog]

Sounds intriguing.

[A_Curious_Cat]

Sounds intriguing.

Putting that through Wambo Dream Art produced this:

[betaking]

I see it as essential for something like the myth and magic arc to be fully workable; as a means by which semi-coherent narratives and stories can be created;

[Tilla]

Some modders managed to mod ChatGPT into Bannerlord, and results are pretty great already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akceKOLtytw

What are chances for AI being integrated into DF, for, for example, book/poetry writing? Now, I understand that during world gen there is a massive amount of books, but it can be doable to generate a story dynamically, like, when you check out a squire written by someone, it gives you usual description, but also gives you button to "read the materials", which will generate actual contents of it.

Don't need the so called 'AI' trend to have this sort of feature, Caves of Qud already generates contents of some books for example without neuralnetworking tech. I don't see the Adamses implementing the current sort of zeitgeist of faux-AI (which is mostly made of stolen content) but I would not rule out it having some form of content generation. I don't think its a high priority feature though but some modder may have fun with it

[GadgetPatch]

I see it as essential for something like the myth and magic arc to be fully workable; as a means by which semi-coherent narratives and stories can be created;

If there's one thing machine learning is no good at, it's being coherent, intentional, or meaningful to humans. It can't create appealing art or writing from thin air; it copies everything from work done by human artists/writers first. And even when copying from people, often still can't reliably make anything worth a damn, without a human curator selecting the best 10% of results and throwing out the other 90%.

The parts of DF's procedural generation that feel most coherent are all choices a designer made. That it would be cool and spooky if there were procedural nightmare-creatures underground, that mash together familiar animals into something weird and dangerous, with unpredictable powers, say. It's a human designer, creating systems to generate familiar fantasy/storybook/horror vibes, which is why it works.

Same is true of the other uses of proc gen; they're best when HEAVILY curated and carefully scoped by a human designing the system, trying to create a specific feel, or evoke something familiar or meaningful. Qud is a great example of doing the same, in a different genre.

[jipehog]

I see it as essential for something like the myth and magic arc to be fully workable; as a means by which semi-coherent narratives and stories can be created;

I believe that what is currently planned for myth and magic can be done using what DF is already using, but it would certainly be advantageous and exciting to explore how Df abilities can be augment, and the myth and magic seem like the right time to do it, unleashing the devs after the few years of daunting UI stuff.

Btw, I believe that ChatGPT is an online only monstrosity with 800gb text databse, but I assume that there many other options (Quick google example) that might be better geared toward DF needs for story generation using legends parameters.

[jipehog]

Caves of Qud already generates contents of some books for example

Same is true of the other uses of proc gen; they're best when HEAVILY curated and carefully scoped by a human designing the system, trying to create a specific feel, or evoke something familiar or meaningful. Qud is a great example of doing the same, in a different genre.

I have never played that game, any chance for couple examples of its generated content? or any other game that does something of the sort that might suit DF somewhow.

[IronGremlin]

No.

Machine learning would be antithetical to everything that makes DF such an amazing example of procedural generation in game design.

DF is all about hand built proc-gen - proc-gen derived from observed fundamentals.

AI is all about the machine deriving patterns from an input set for you and coming to it's own conclusions - asking for machine learning in Dwarf Fortress is like asking why someone wouldn't just take a helicopter up to the peak of Mt. Everest, it sort of misses the point of the whole endeavor.

[jipehog]

Several people argued that AI computer-generated content can't match a human designers in creating appealing content. I disagree. Take DF world generator for example, one could similarly argue that this computer-generated pattern based randomness can't match a human designers in quality, however sometimes quantity has a quality of its own and the amount of uniquely diverse content world gen is able to generate on the spot makes for a much less repetitive and predictable experience that is staple of DF.   

I believe that AI is just a fancy name for how one comes up with very complex patterns that can be used in more flexible ways. Thus instead of hand crafting patterns for the computer to produce the desired outcome, one hand craft the database and rules used for the computer to generate patterns that produce the desired outcome.

In the last decade there was much advances in the field. From what I can tell AI algorithms still can't produce engaging characters, compelling plot or story structure. But I suspect there are many new tools and DB available that could enhance the devs ability to generate content and ways to present it in-game. At the very least it can be used as tool in the hand of Dev to find interesting results to augment the games existing text set

[betaking]

I see it as essential for something like the myth and magic arc to be fully workable; as a means by which semi-coherent narratives and stories can be created;

If there's one thing machine learning is no good at, it's being coherent, intentional, or meaningful to humans. It can't create appealing art or writing from thin air; it copies everything from work done by human artists/writers first. And even when copying from people, often still can't reliably make anything worth a damn, without a human curator selecting the best 10% of results and throwing out the other 90%.

The parts of DF's procedural generation that feel most coherent are all choices a designer made. That it would be cool and spooky if there were procedural nightmare-creatures underground, that mash together familiar animals into something weird and dangerous, with unpredictable powers, say. It's a human designer, creating systems to generate familiar fantasy/storybook/horror vibes, which is why it works.

Same is true of the other uses of proc gen; they're best when HEAVILY curated and carefully scoped by a human designing the system, trying to create a specific feel, or evoke something familiar or meaningful. Qud is a great example of doing the same, in a different genre.

that might be it too;
the reason I said "semi-coherent" was (essentially) I've seen some examples of AI writing that are capable of writing sentences that, while mostly full of useless filler and are "big picture" nonsense, seem to make some sense on a word-to-word level.

allowing there to be a great deal of curation; particularly for things like names, symbols, etc.

the main thing I'm thinking of is having AI write "outlines" of stories that concern "time before time"; where I think a cloud of contradicting and confusing, vague, and sometimes just weird stories are compiled and used for backstories of Civs.

[brewer bob]

The biggest problem I have with incorporating AI written elements into DF is that it'd strip the player from creating/imagining the content on their own. What I love about DF is that the information it presents is very vague and you'll have to use your own imagination to fill in the blanks and piece the little info you have into a whole.

If there'd be an AI doing that, well, I don't know why I'd even bother to play. Might just as well go grab a real book and read it.

[Eric Blank]

I'm not sure that would be a problem, as the AI would still be limited in what it could tell you based on the history of the world, and presumably limited further by what rumors that particular npc has access to. (Assuming full integration into the existing rumors and history network)

It would be really cool for sure to have a conversation with an AI that can bring up rumors of particular beasts and so on by typing in questions instead of having to go through a menu of thousands of rumors your character knows but having no way to query directly about something not on the list. Like an interactive search function. You could for instance ask it "what can you tell me about the (procedurally generated night creature)?" And if the character has heard about them, can give you their description. You could ask if they know where to find some, and from rumors the npc knows it could respond with "I heard that one attacked (hamletname) at one point, but not really" things like that.

There would still be megatons of info left undisclosed to write about, for example if you were playing the Museum community game.

I think it would be a great addition in that sense, but definitely an addition Toady would probably be seeking outside support to accomplish if he chose to implement it.

[Orange-of-Cthulhu]

Some modders managed to mod ChatGPT into Bannerlord, and results are pretty great already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akceKOLtytw

What are chances for AI being integrated into DF, for, for example, book/poetry writing? Now, I understand that during world gen there is a massive amount of books, but it can be doable to generate a story dynamically, like, when you check out a squire written by someone, it gives you usual description, but also gives you button to "read the materials", which will generate actual contents of it.

It's hard to do. The AI probably would just write along and then contradict the world informaton in legend's mode. I don't think it would be satisfying to have AI-generated books that contains texts that contradict the rest of the gameworld. Like a poem about the grand Elven towers that would never exist in DF because Elves don't make towers.

A generic database of fantasy-stuff would also for instance result in the AI talking about dragons and say stuff like "mighty warriors slay dragons" despite maybe the world doesn't have any dragons in it al all.

A generic database would also for instance result in very off beat statements regarding Elves compared to the DF-Elves, as the DF elves are quite different from standard fantasy Elves.

Toady would, I guess, have to create his own AI that could a) read all the information in world gen b) also sort which information is avalable to the character and c) remember past AI-generated texts so it doesn't start all over again and contradic itself in every text d) doesn't contain a lot of text that flat our contradicts the DF-world such as texts that describe Elves as excellent smiths or as building awesome cities.

In order for d to happen he's need to create his own huge custom datebase of reference text, that is I think a crazy lot of work.

I playes some game based on AI and it looks cool at first, but if you write sneaky comments it goes to nonsense immediately because the AI doesn't care about what it said 2 seconds ago, it cares about it's database.

So you can for instance ask characters about like their favorite food and you get a nicely written but totally different answer every time, and then it quickly becomes like "what's the point of this."