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Author Topic: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum  (Read 8903 times)

Haggoroth

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2022, 11:57:03 am »

This conversation is kinda pointless, but not as pointless as it is to ban someone over posting a picture of a frog.  I feel left out of the pointlessness so I wanted to post.
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jipehog

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2022, 01:46:47 pm »

I want to preface this with my opinions that I don't think pepe is a hategroup only meme

Naturally. You can say the same about swastika originally being a relatively harmless symbol which still have a religious and cultural significance around the world. However, one have to be tone deaf to ignore its political use and stigmatization since the nazi appropriation.

What did you expect would happen if you say "I won't follow your rules"?

Indeed. There is a time and place for everything and flaunting modding decision is generally not a good way to have a productive conversation about community rules. Decision has been made now he should own up to them.
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Crashmaster

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2022, 03:27:41 am »

If someone told me "hey, man, posting that frog makes you look like an asshole" I for one would simply choose to not post the frog that makes me look like an asshole

Hy mn sng vwls mks y lk lk n sshle.

Vivalas

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2022, 06:21:14 pm »

I want to preface this with my opinions that I don't think pepe is a hategroup only meme

Naturally. You can say the same about swastika originally being a relatively harmless symbol which still have a religious and cultural significance around the world. However, one have to be tone deaf to ignore its political use and stigmatization since the nazi appropriation.



Continuing to do this absurdist comparison of Pepe to the Swastika is just reinforcing the absurdist nature of banning Pepe in the first place. One is far more associated with the right than the other. To be honest, I kinda forgot about the "Pepe is alt-right" meme, I thought that died in 2016. Like, that whole think was basically a troll from 4chan. A troll that's still kinda amusingly reaping dividends, nontheless. I just counted through my discord servers, and I'm in like....  at least 5 that have a liberal usage of Pepe emotes. None of them are even remotely close to being alt right. One of them is a game many Bay12 users may be familiar with themselves, the Aurora 4x server.

I kinda like this thread though, since I think there's merit to both arguments here. This thread seems like, in summary, a combination of "why bother banning Pepe", which is something in itself could be called "tone deaf", and also "why not just obey the rules of a specific Discord server out of politeness", which I also agree with. Biggest issue here, in my opinion, is continuing to equate Pepe to some sort of alt-right symbol. Which, is just silly, given that in all of the servers I'm in that allow Pepe, you'd probably be immediately banned in for posting a swastika. I agree with the poster talking about people making assumptions: association of symbols can be very subjective, and from what I can see, that association of Pepe with the alt-right is a very subjective one that not every gaming group agrees with. But I also don't think Kitfox is really doing that, just that one other poster here.

Take my 2 cents and go buy bacon or something. Merry Christmas and here's to a happy New Year's.
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Cathar

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2022, 07:21:21 pm »

Here's my own two cents for what they worth (two cents) :

First cent :
• Banning or having as a rule to ban something that ceased to be edgy in 2017 is facially absurd.
• Pepe the frog is not an alt right meme. It's internet culture, a slight connection to 4chan is the edgiest it gets nowaday.
• The very concept of discord kids moderating bay12 oldbeards make me extremely uncomfortable.

Second cent :
• "A company shouldn't ban a paying customer etc." : as someone who have to deal with customers as part of my job, I always found this line of reasoning to be absurd and entitled. You agree to the rules when you enter the shop, if you don't follow them, of course you'll get removed, paying or not.
I'm very sure that the problem is not you posted pepe the frog, a stale meme nobody cares about, but the fact you undermined their authority by doing something that you were specifically asked not to do, hence diminishing their capacity to control the collective behavior of their userbase. The $20 you paid will never worth weeks of effort for the moderation to reassess their authority and cutting you off is a defensible behavior.
• Somehow that situation feel expected, as it is the necessary consequence of the massification of DF. It was inevitable.
I hope that kind of drama will not come settle in bay12 as the number of player rises.
• When you swim with the normies you better not make waves


Mery christmas and happy new year frens

GiglameshDespair

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2022, 08:49:15 am »

So after being warned by a moderator, you tell them you have no intention of following the rules and they should ban you if they have a problem with it.
They then do.
You then come here to whine about being banned.

...What were you expecting, exactly?
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IamanElfCollaborator

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2022, 09:29:00 am »

This.

If you're a guest in someone else's house, you respect their rules even if you disagree with them, unless you have a particular love of being kicked out on your behind. Same applies to servers.

To continue the metaphor, telling the homeowners after they tell you to stop crapping on their rug that you will continue to do so is probably a quick way to exit. Same applies to servers.

Chevaleresse

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2022, 10:11:13 am »

It sounds like you fucked around and were shocked when you found out. I agree with the whole pepe = alt right thing but you sorta. Told a mod you had no intent to listen. Of course you got removed?
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Tiruin

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2022, 05:33:28 pm »

It really went in here, hum.

Before the current spread in many media areas (as noted before), the context of pepe in 2016ish was in a really toxic environment//in favorable or common use by hate groups/4chan--commonly using reductivity, dismissiveness, and bad faith to spread tones from bigotry to worse. Didn't help that many depictions were worsened from where they were taken to make fun of others espefiallt marginalized people or mis/disrepresent their arguments. The artist who made the character had to kill the character off and such, seeing the impact and common use of their work. Excusing any of this as "any symbol can be used for hate" can literally miss...that it was already done and has impacted tons of people; people don't just do this. That was all before Twitch and other platforms got immersed with it by cultural drift, commonly from the same people who would spread it as if innocuous later on and would notably somehow cling to or insist upon its use over others. My badly done notes at 5am having only mediocre experience tracking symbols here. But it doesn't even matter if people remember that time--what matters is that there was something important mentioned.

If innocuous, the best idea to work with is going "Why" and then having detail on why, and then moving with that. If it's so common as plainly washed in the OP, then realizing "perhaps there's a reason why there's this manner of action", like any good faith approach would bring to any reasonable person, much less someone in the position of a public discord moderator. That stuff is stressful and nobody in experience becomes one effectively considering Dwarf Fortress' publisher, gauging their own mental health.

The issue isn't with Kitfox but the persistence to stand upon this as if it matters when... there's Literally Any Other Art present and absolutely no restriction to choosing otherwise espefially when notified about it. It's even mentioned how many times in the server itself--initially the admin folks thought it wasn't as needed to uphold but then it became a wonderful unintentional litmus test as people who worked with decency and genuineness would generally go "oh" after asking "why" and basically Not Do The Thing when it becomes known it factually affects people negatively, and in a server like that, community-building is a focus. As anyone would detail IN GOOD FAITH: People don't need to even bring up the swastika (or non-eurocentric ones) to realize, actually, hate continues on today and perhaps being an international (or even local) context still perhaps has people affected. That there is a significant intensity to it is in the very least important to recognize, unless one's sense of "I'm not affected" is somehow more important than...others' concerns.

So basically it all depends on how much you care about other people vs "you bothering about it". Pretty annoyed that contextual details keep getting washed away by omission, but that's the power of time and memory and repeating something else rather than be accountable and learn. You can do better; there's a lot of space for it. There's more than "regret" there.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 10:26:48 pm by Tiruin »
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Cthulhu

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2022, 04:56:43 pm »

Anybody frogposting in 2022 should be banned without a warning.  You're either /pol/ diaspora shitting up the blue boards or you think frogposting is funny.  Either way you should not be tolerated anywhere.
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ayy1337

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2022, 08:09:39 pm »

This.

If you're a guest in someone else's house, you respect their rules even if you disagree with them, unless you have a particular love of being kicked out on your behind. Same applies to servers.

To continue the metaphor, telling the homeowners after they tell you to stop crapping on their rug that you will continue to do so is probably a quick way to exit. Same applies to servers.
Just picking a random one of these to respond to because so many people seem to think I'm complaining about being banned, even though I specifically said they should ban me lol. The thing I'm complaining about is not being banned per se, but the stupid rule.
Idk how I can make it clear, maybe imagine instead of pepe they said no posting pictures of burgers, because burgers are American and we don't like Americans.

I don't care about being banned as such on the basis of this rule, because I wouldn't want to be a member of a community which seriously believes this rule - I'm annoyed I've given them money.

I'm very sure that the problem is not you posted pepe the frog, a stale meme nobody cares about, but the fact you undermined their authority by doing something that you were specifically asked not to do, hence diminishing their capacity to control the collective behavior of their userbase. The $20 you paid will never worth weeks of effort for the moderation to reassess their authority and cutting you off is a defensible behavior.

Mery christmas and happy new year frens
You'd think it's just a stale meme nobody cares about but they care about it enough to single it out in the rules as verboten.
Happy new year to you as well fren.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2022, 09:23:57 pm »

You complained that them having a rule was a personal attack on your values. It was pointed out to you that them having a rule and you breaking it deliberately and asking to be banned simply shows that you don't care about their rules and they were right to ban you regardless of whether you're a neo-nazi or not.

Rule is right, wrong, who knows? Prove that it hasn't been an alt-right meme in any country in the world since 2015 and they may listen to you. Throw a tantrum and you're just another rule-ignoring nobody that they don't need spamming their discord.
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IamanElfCollaborator

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2022, 10:33:00 pm »

Again, you entered their house, you agreed to their rules. You don't like it, get out and you did. You may not agree with that rule, but changing it is not up to you. If you think it's a stupid rule, you're welcome to, free internet. But damn, move on. It's one Discord on the wide Internet, you'll find one that'll let you post a poorly drawn frog somewhere.

LucasUP

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2022, 03:00:20 am »

It's not that I mind buying things from people who disagree with me, because I don't care what they believe. I'm taking issue that they are 1) assuming my beliefs from a popular emoji of a cartoon frog, and 2) care enough about my assumed beliefs to ban me for that.

Here is your misunderstanding. A rule that bans Pepe for its ASSOCIATION with hate groups DOES NOT mean they are claiming YOU are a member of a hate group for using it.
Memes have different meanings to different people. Pepe might come across negative and hateful to enough people that it warranted a ban on it, EVEN WITH THE UNDERSTANDING that it can often be used as a totally inert meme.

It's simply a statement that it may come across to enough people as ambiguous or hateful that it is has been decided to be banned.

I don't know where you live, but In Canada and US the "V" hand-sign means "peace" and is often used authentically as a positive symbol, but did you know the "V" hand-sign is considered offensive in the UK/Ireland/Autralia/Newzealand? Lets imagine a discord (with some population of people from all these countries) decides to ban the V hand symbol because IT IS OFTEN ASSOCIATED with hate, because a lot of people in that discord are from a culture where it is IN FACT a hateful symbol. You post it, NOT intending to be hateful, but instead mean it as a legitimate Peace sign. The moderators contention is that it's ambiguous, and that some people interpret the V sign as an insult, and probably isn't the best symbol to use in their server with many UK/etc people. They ask you nicely to stop using it. They are not actually claiming that YOU are using it in a hateful way, only that it can be (and in fact, WILL BE) interpreted as hateful to many people in that discord.

Instead of saying "Sure! Not posting the V hand sign emoji in this one server is a pretty small deal"
You say: "I wont follow that rule and if that's a problem you should just ban me now."

EDIT: Grammar
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 03:12:21 am by LucasUP »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Regret purchasing steam version: Kitfox conundrum
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2022, 05:57:24 am »

Funnily enough kids from Japan on their first trip abroad to Hawaii have to be warned that posing for a photo with a peace sign (as all Japanese do) at Pearl Harbour will be interpreted as a V for Victory sign (something completely unknown in Japan) by certain local folk prone to becoming enraged about historical events.
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