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[MrGlasses]

I understand having a guard unit made of buff, lean, mean, forgotten beast killing machines might not be the best idea especially when it comes to Dwarven Justice, but I'm finding that EVERY time they perform a beating on a civilian they are breaking a back, bashing a skull through a brain or ripping out spines, maybe have it so that when a civilian goes unconscious the guard stop the beating or they beat them a little more...softly? I'm aware the wiki article already suggests not having duked out town guard but...still a suggestion.

[betaking]

wooden mallets and sledges should be a thing;

maybe as a requirement for stone-carving and engraving along with chisels; like anvils are; or not; i've heard there's plans for workshops to be improved in the future;

[dth1]

I agree, guards shouldn't beat crafter to death for now making 3 figurines on time. That's just dumb. There should be some beating post that you could place in dungeon where guard would lead the criminal and beat his back doing some lacerations etc but not breaking bones, gauging eyes and piercing brains. That could be different punishment called "death by torture"

[brewer bob]

I agree, guards shouldn't beat crafter to death for now making 3 figurines on time. That's just dumb.

That's in line with dwarf ethics, whether you think it's dumb or not. Oath-breaking (=violating mandates) is punishable by death.

[dth1]

Beating is not death sentence. It's a bug not a feature.

[Nordlicht]

Getting beaten with a hammer sounds like a harsh punishment. Maybe it should only be applied in cases of expected death sentence - how about adding whiping or some form of ducking of backers (which seems quite fitting for not meeting production goals) as punishment. Medieval times were quite ingenious when it comes to punishment.

Edit: I think public shaming was also quite often used. Could have a nice impact on social dynamics in the fort. And punishment might also become an event that other dwarves want to watch.

[brewer bob]

Getting beaten with a hammer sounds like a harsh punishment. Maybe it should only be applied in cases of expected death sentence

That's precisely what violating mandates carries as a punishment (PUNISH_CAPITAL). Those can be downgraded to a beating (if there's no restraints available, iirc), which is "only" PUNISH_SERIOUS, and a beating shouldn't result in death (like dth1 mentioned above).

Violation of production orders is basically going against a noble (or, how I've understood it from the ethics), and nobles are a bunch of jerks.

But yeah, more types of punishments would be nice. Medieval justice wasn't always as brutal as is often thought.

[MrGlasses]

Getting beaten with a hammer sounds like a harsh punishment. Maybe it should only be applied in cases of expected death sentence - how about adding whiping or some form of ducking of backers (which seems quite fitting for not meeting production goals) as punishment. Medieval times were quite ingenious when it comes to punishment.

Edit: I think public shaming was also quite often used. Could have a nice impact on social dynamics in the fort. And punishment might also become an event that other dwarves want to watch.

They don't use their weapons when they do the beatings. They are using fists, wrestling and biting. The problem is when you have Officer Urist McSteelGuns doing the beatings, they have a tendency to beat skulls through brains or break backs which IS a death sentence. When they get a hammering, that's a different story.

[jipehog]

Oooh my.. I am fine with a little spanking in our dungeon.

[A_Curious_Cat]

I agree, guards shouldn't beat crafter to death for now making 3 figurines on time. That's just dumb.

That's in line with dwarf ethics, whether you think it's dumb or not. Oath-breaking (=violating mandates) is punishable by death.

The problem I’m seeing is that you’re assuming that mandates involve the making of oaths.

It seems to me that oaths should be restricted to where things are really serious (such as an oath to protect one’s civilization against foreign adversaries).  Also, the use of the term “mandate” seems to indicate that the dwar(f/ves) being made to obey the mandate don’t really have any choice as to whether or not they obey it.  With an oath, on the other hand, the person taking the oath does so of their own free will.  They have a choice as to whether or not they take the oath (though, they may end up losing out on something (perhaps even their life) if they refuse to take it).  The point is that the person taking the oath has a choice.  They can take the oath (and receive whatever benefits are promised for doing so) or they can refuse to do so (losing out on the promised benefits).

In any case, I feel that a death sentence for disobeying or failing to comply with a mandate is a little extreme (and a little foolish.  When a similar thing was tried in China by Mao Zedong, those affected resorted to cooking the books which set in motion a chain of events that resulted in one of the 20th century’s biggest famines.).  Now, I could be wrong and violating a mandate really does carry a death sentence (I’ve not gotten far enough to set up an injustice system).  I believe the best way to tell would be to set up a fully working justice system (including a hammered) and wait for someone to violate a mandate.  Once they do (and before the sentence is carried out), I would use the justice screen to view their case (once they have been convicted, of course) and see what the prescribed punishment is.  That would be the best way to figure out whether violating a mandate is really punishable by death (and therefore likely considered to be breaking an oath).

In any case, I agree with others in this thread that (most) physical punishments should be softer (in particular, I believe that those administering the punishments shouldn’t be using their full force and should only use appropriate implements).

[brewer bob]

I agree, guards shouldn't beat crafter to death for now making 3 figurines on time. That's just dumb.

That's in line with dwarf ethics, whether you think it's dumb or not. Oath-breaking (=violating mandates) is punishable by death.

The problem I’m seeing is that you’re assuming that mandates involve the making of oaths.

This assumption is based on what the wiki says about oath-breaking:

The result of a citizen violating noble mandates in fortress mode. Other effects unknown.

So, unless the wiki is mistaken (which it could be), violating mandates is oath-breaking, which in the case of dwarf ethics has a death penalty.

Edit. I'm also pretty sure that each time I've had a hammerer and someone violated production orders, the punishment was a hammering. But it's quite a long time since that's happened, so I might remember wrong.

[jipehog]

Currently there are 3 types of punishments: beating, imprisonment, and hammering. Naturally beatings should have a safe word to avoid ending up a capital punishment.

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Justice#Punishments


I would love if the justice system as whole get a polish pass along with villain updates. both on the investigation side and on the available options to handle it.

[dth1]

If failing to meet mandate were punished by death, all the crafters sentenced to beating should die. That's not the case, so beating is bugged. It should either always end up with death or never end up with death. Currently beating is worse than prison time.

[Toybasher]

I think unarmed justice beatings should try to prioritize limbs and the lower torso while having a penalty to odds of an attack targetting the upper torso and head.

It's been a problem for ages. Like, since the 40d days but the new combat and wound system introduced in the DF2010 era made unarmed combat a lot deadlier, furthermore with the pulping changes in 2014.

We often see the beater punching the dwarf in the head which destroys the head, damages the brain, or causes compound skull fracture into the brain, or damaging the upper spine and causing suffocation and paralysis. (or lung bruising)

Another option could be when a justice beating is delivered, the dwarf hits with half force. Might be a little too soft but beatings overall, in my opinion should only rough a dwarf up and potentially require medical treatment for a broken bone or two. Currently, beatings often outright kill dwarves. It's supposed to be a lighter punishment then imprisonment, yet currently imprisonment is far preferable to a beating.

I am alright with a hammerer's beating killing dwarves though. Hammer strikes are supposed to be worse than imprisonment and are effectively the dwarven version of capital punishment.

EDIT: Although I never appoint a hammerer. Reading posts in this thread, violating a production/export order is a hammering? If that's the case, that's pretty extreme. I feel hammering should only be for the most serious crimes like murder, conspiring with criminals, etc.

Pretty crazy the most common crime your dwarfs will commit (being unable to accomplish some stupid noble request because the noble has preferences for stuff you don't have access to like glass on a sandless map) is normally punishable by death, and it's been this way the entire time and we haven't really paid attention because we never appoint hammerers. I think it should be downgraded to imprisonment by default, and only hammering for murder/espionage.

[brewer bob]

Pretty crazy the most common crime your dwarfs will commit (being unable to accomplish some stupid noble request because the noble has preferences for stuff you don't have access to like glass on a sandless map) is normally punishable by death, and it's been this way the entire time and we haven't really paid attention because we never appoint hammerers. I think it should be downgraded to imprisonment by default, and only hammering for murder/espionage.

Well, that's nobles for you. They were much worse in the real world.

If you want the punishment to be downgraded for mandate violations, you can edit the ethics of dwarves in the entity file. (Personally, I'm against changing it to a milder punishment in the regular game. Nobles should be jerks and hated.)