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[Telgin]

Worth also mentioning that you'll probably have to generate a new world if you edit the entity file.  Pretty sure access to things in entities does not get updated in existing worlds.  I think DFHack has a way to fix that but I've never done it.

[callisto8413]

Thank you folks.  That was very helpful.  My human residents and one dinosaur bard should have some clothing to wear to repace the stuff they are wearing when their current stuff becomes too worn.

[Samten]

Quick question:
If I dig a channel from the surface (say, from the z to z-1), then tiles on z-1 layer become “outside light above ground”.
Now if I construct a ceiling (technically, a floor at z level), then tiles on z-1 layer become “inside light above ground”.
Now if I dig a channel from z-1 (which is now “inside light above ground”) to z-2, do tiles at z-2 become “inside light above ground”? (assuming they were “inside dark subterrain” before)

[Blue_Dwarf]

Quick question:
If I dig a channel from the surface (say, from the z to z-1), then tiles on z-1 layer become “outside light above ground”.
Now if I construct a ceiling (technically, a floor at z level), then tiles on z-1 layer become “inside light above ground”.
Now if I dig a channel from z-1 (which is now “inside light above ground”) to z-2, do tiles at z-2 become “inside light above ground”? (assuming they were “inside dark subterrain” before)

From the wiki:

"Once an area is exposed to the outside world, it is Above Ground and Light (and thus channelling this tile will make the tile below it also Above Ground and Light)"

[Samten]

Quick question:
If I dig a channel from the surface (say, from the z to z-1), then tiles on z-1 layer become “outside light above ground”.
Now if I construct a ceiling (technically, a floor at z level), then tiles on z-1 layer become “inside light above ground”.
Now if I dig a channel from z-1 (which is now “inside light above ground”) to z-2, do tiles at z-2 become “inside light above ground”? (assuming they were “inside dark subterrain” before)

From the wiki:

"Once an area is exposed to the outside world, it is Above Ground and Light (and thus channelling this tile will make the tile below it also Above Ground and Light)"

Thanks a lot!

[callisto8413]

I don't know where to start.  I am trying to make a above ground windmill.  Have the millstones linked to the gear assembly with axles and a vertical axle that goes up to the windmill.  But the last two items are hanging no matter what I do.  Do I need to buld the machinery in a certain order or place it someplace else?  I seem to remember this having issues before.  Any help would be welcome.    I may need to pull it all down and rebuild someplace? Is it bugged?

[Schmaven]

I don't know where to start.  I am trying to make a above ground windmill.  Have the millstones linked to the gear assembly with axles and a vertical axle that goes up to the windmill.  But the last two items are hanging no matter what I do.  Do I need to buld the machinery in a certain order or place it someplace else?  I seem to remember this having issues before.  Any help would be welcome.    I may need to pull it all down and rebuild someplace? Is it bugged?

Do you have a gear assembly between the vertical axle and the windmill?

[callisto8413]

Do you have a gear assembly between the vertical axle and the windmill?

No, the vertical axle is between the gear assembly and the windmill.  I even tried lowering the windmill to link directly with the gear assembly.  Could it be that I just don't have any wind where I settled?

Edit : I made a windmill away from the town, on the ground, and it did nothing.  I don't think I have any wind.   

On the other hand my watermill is working.  So, there is that!

[Blue_Dwarf]

Could it be that I just don't have any wind where I settled?

To see if you have wind, you just need to construct a windmill in an outside area, it doesn't have to be connected to anything. If you have wind, it will say "Active, Total power:20/40".

[unchow]

Can anyone confirm exactly how quality modifier math works? I get that there is a multiplier and a flat bonus now, but which happens first?

Is it:

[(item type x item material) + quality bonus] x (quality multiplier)

or

[(item type x item material) x quality multiplier] + (quality bonus)

or some other third thing?

I thought I read something about this right when 0.50 came out, but now I can't find anything that explicitly says. The wiki just mentions that there is a multiplier and a bonus, but doesn't say how exactly that works. I'm assuming the bonus is added at the end after the multiplier, but I'd like to know for sure.

edit: also, a similar question about decorations. I know that "decoration" has an item value of 10, and then you use the decoration material value and quality like normal. But where does the item type value of the decoration material figure in, if at all? As in, a cut gem has an item type value of 20, and a metal bar has 5. So if two identical items are decorated with, say, onyx gems (material value 2) on one and copper studs (material value 2) on the other, and all quality modifiers are the same, how do those two values compare?

[Saiko Kila]

Can anyone confirm exactly how quality modifier math works? I get that there is a multiplier and a flat bonus now, but which happens first?

Is it:

[(item type x item material) + quality bonus] x (quality multiplier)

or

[(item type x item material) x quality multiplier] + (quality bonus)

or some other third thing?

The second is correct, assuming the "item type" is what is usually known as "base value". First the base value is multiplied by material value and quality multiplier (doesn't matter which one is first), and then the flat bonus is added (which explains why stack of ammo are so valuable, 25 masterwork arrows with 30 value added for each give 750 value total bonus, without counting any materials).

Beware, the base values in wiki aren't apparently correct for armor/weapons in current version. For example actual base value for high boot is 5, not 12.

For decorations, doesn't matter what the decoration item base value is, what matters is the material value.

[unchow]

The second is correct, assuming the "item type" is what is usually known as "base value". First the base value is multiplied by material value and quality multiplier (doesn't matter which one is first), and then the flat bonus is added (which explains why stack of ammo are so valuable, 25 masterwork arrows with 30 value added for each give 750 value total bonus, without counting any materials).

Beware, the base values in wiki aren't apparently correct for armor/weapons in current version. For example actual base value for high boot is 5, not 12.

That makes sense, and is what I had assumed, thanks! And yeah, I get the impression that there's some science to be done in the realm of wealth and value

For decorations, doesn't matter what the decoration item base value is, what matters is the material value.

Interesting. Currently the wiki says this on the "gem" page:

Cut gems have a base value of 20. Items can be decorated (encrusted) with cut gems; all such decorations have a value of 20 times the gem type's value multiplier

and the "decoration" page says this:

Most decorations have quality levels: a base value of 10☼, multiplied by its material multiplier and quality multiplier

Do you think one of these is incorrect? Does an encrusted gem use 20 as its base value instead of the usual 10 for other decorations? The main reason I ask is because if an un-encrusted cut gem has a base value of 20, but that gets replaced by a base value of 10 when encrusted onto something, then you could have situations where the gem is worth less if the gem setting is of low quality, right?

[Saiko Kila]

The second is correct, assuming the "item type" is what is usually known as "base value". First the base value is multiplied by material value and quality multiplier (doesn't matter which one is first), and then the flat bonus is added (which explains why stack of ammo are so valuable, 25 masterwork arrows with 30 value added for each give 750 value total bonus, without counting any materials).

Beware, the base values in wiki aren't apparently correct for armor/weapons in current version. For example actual base value for high boot is 5, not 12.

That makes sense, and is what I had assumed, thanks! And yeah, I get the impression that there's some science to be done in the realm of wealth and value

For decorations, doesn't matter what the decoration item base value is, what matters is the material value.

Interesting. Currently the wiki says this on the "gem" page:

Cut gems have a base value of 20. Items can be decorated (encrusted) with cut gems; all such decorations have a value of 20 times the gem type's value multiplier

and the "decoration" page says this:

Most decorations have quality levels: a base value of 10☼, multiplied by its material multiplier and quality multiplier

Do you think one of these is incorrect? Does an encrusted gem use 20 as its base value instead of the usual 10 for other decorations? The main reason I ask is because if an un-encrusted cut gem has a base value of 20, but that gets replaced by a base value of 10 when encrusted onto something, then you could have situations where the gem is worth less if the gem setting is of low quality, right?

For decorations, it doesn't matter if a dwarf takes a rough diamonds, or cut diamonds, the artefact will have exactly the same value. However, gems have a hidden multiplier when it comes to decorations, they count twice as much as they do in other cases. So even if iron costs the same as  shell opal for example (they have both base value of 10), decoration from shell opal will be worth almost twice as much as from iron (this is for artefact, hence the *20 and +300):

IRON DECORATION value: (10*10*20)+300 = 2300
SHELL OPAL DECORATION value: (10*10*2*20)+300 = 4300

Doesn't matter if the gem is cut or rough, though (but you can use rough gems for decoration only in strange moods).

As for quality... let's take for example the most valuable gems, which are worth 360 uncut (because rough gem 6 x most expensive base 60 = 360), and 1200 cut (because cut gem 20 * most expensive base 60 = 1200). What would be the cheapest possible decoration, masterwork decoration, and the most expensive decoration when artefacturing? Note that you have to use cut gem for decoration of non-artefacts:

LAMEST DECORATION value: 10*60*2*1+0 = 1200
MASTERWORK DECORATION value: 10*60*2*2+30 = 2430
BEST DECORATION value (artefactic): 10*60*2*20+300 = 24300

As you see, thanks to the hidden, additional multiplier for gems, you cannot lose value when using gems for decoration, in the worst case the decoration has the same value as cut gem, and often higher.

[unchow]

Okay cool, thanks for the response. I mean this question mostly in the context of non-artifact crafting and decorating, but it sounds like it applies the same way (though obviously you cant encrust with rough gems normally). Cut gems just get a 20 base value instead of the usual 10 when encrusted onto an object. That's good to know! (and something the wiki doesn't really explain)

I also get the impression that gems are the only decoration that keep their base value in this way? A bar of metal just gets a base value of 5 multiplied by its material, but metal studded onto an object gets a base value of 10 and a quality modifier, right? Which would mean something like a metal cap (base value of 5) would be a less valuable use of metals than studding other objects (ignoring the utility of the cap itself).

Mostly this is just highlighting (to me) the significance of actually using your materials, if your goal is to generate wealth efficiently. It seems much more useful to encrust the gems you've already found than to just mine for more gems and leave them in a bin.

[Saiko Kila]

Okay cool, thanks for the response. I mean this question mostly in the context of non-artifact crafting and decorating, but it sounds like it applies the same way (though obviously you cant encrust with rough gems normally). Cut gems just get a 20 base value instead of the usual 10 when encrusted onto an object. That's good to know! (and something the wiki doesn't really explain)

Gems are double value material when used as decorations, that's why I emphasise that whether they are cut or not doesn't matter for decorations - again, base value of item doesn't matter for decorations, only the material itself. The same is with platinum for example - platinum nuggets, blocks or bars all give the same value when used in decorations, though apart from strange moods you can use only bars. When you use an item for decoration, its previous form is lost and doesn't count.

Gems have special modifier so you don't lose value. Though there is still one mechanism where you can feel "cheated" when dealing with gems. Large gems have base value of 10, so if made in the lower qualities than masterful, you lose value you could get if the gem was cut normally, instead of into large gem.

Another modifier is for encrusting ammo (or was, I'm not sure if it wasn't removed, I don't encrust ammo), lowering value.

I also get the impression that gems are the only decoration that keep their base value in this way? A bar of metal just gets a base value of 5 multiplied by its material, but metal studded onto an object gets a base value of 10 and a quality modifier, right? Which would mean something like a metal cap (base value of 5) would be a less valuable use of metals than studding other objects (ignoring the utility of the cap itself).

Mostly this is just highlighting (to me) the significance of actually using your materials, if your goal is to generate wealth efficiently. It seems much more useful to encrust the gems you've already found than to just mine for more gems and leave them in a bin.

Bars have base value of 5, decorations have base value of 10, plus they can have quality modifiers, so decorations are at least twice as expensive as bars they are made from.

Caps have actually base value of 10 (as do most armors and weapons in v50, except these made in pairs, which have base value of 5). So in their case it is more valuable to send them to whoever has higher skill - armorer or the metalcrafter. However, there are cases of greaves, mail shirts and breastplates. They still have base value of 10, but require more bars than one (2, 2 and 3 respectively). On them, you can lose value easily. Though I still would make them instead of decorating with metal - to train armorsmiths.

But the best if you want to make value routinely from metal is to produce bolts. Stack of 25 steel bolts cost from 750 of base quality to 2250 of masterful quality, compared to 150 of the steel bar. For comparison, any item or decoration made of steel, masterful quality, costs 630. This also trains weaponsmiths, so double win.