Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hero]

I really miss the old UI already. It'd be the best if we could get it back as an option in future releases of Premium.

[Lightman]

I just started playing the Steam version. I'm a bit disappointed that all the keys seemed to have been changed and that the changes don't seem any better or more logical.

That being said, I haven't played enough to really evaluate everything. I would prefer some of the old keys but I should be able to get used to the new keys, given a little time.

However, I would definitely vote for a UI that allows playing without a mouse.

[Salmeuk]

I really really wanted to like the new UI and I think I will - with improvements and / or DFhack modifications. As it stands its simply not what I want or enjoyed about dwarf fortress interaction.

[MrNewVegas]

genuinely cannot fathom why anyone - least of all the adams brothers, for whom playing the game is essentially a job - would prefer such an inaccurate and slow input method when what we had already was almost perfect.

Dwarf Fortress is a complex game, and part of the complexity of the game is learning the hotkeys. A lot of the parts of DF were difficult and opaque on first glance, but it is hard to argue that with sufficient knowledge they were not largely usable. Things seem to have been changed not because of any particular advantage (the advantage has to be large to overcome 10+ years of inertia) but just because it was possible to change them.

I would like to hear from the Adams' brothers about this before I pass too much judgement, honestly - but I really feel like the old system had a lot of strengths for the people who could navigate it by instinct, and while those people clearly aren't the people you should be trying to sell the game to in the steam update, it's hard to argue that those people don't have at least some value. They're the people that kept DF alive all these years, after all. Maybe everyone except me hated the interface and was donating in the hope that they would change it, but I certainly didn't feel like the interface was necessarily bad at all, really. Even military, the part of the game I feel like I understood the least (or hospitals) weren't something I felt like it was *impossible* to understand, just that clearly there was a lot going on, and that to really understand all the things I could do was a lot. After one playthrough where I made serious attempts to understand something in the game, I felt like I understood it enough to get real use out of it, from simple things like an underground cistern all the way up to relatively complex wind-powered pump stack mechanisms, and from then on the UI meant you could do it very quickly indeed.

[Celarious]

we're in the same boat as nshapter. the last few days have been quite literally painful.

a lot of things in premium seem to have been "streamlined", ostensibly to save newbie brains from frying - but all that's done is paper over the complexity with systems that take away control, making them more confusing and frustrating than they ever were to begin with. it's impossible now, for instance, to fix a stair that was mistakenly designated as a down stair to be an up/down stair; reports, when dismissed, are memory holed and lost forever; labors cannot be feasibly set on a per-dwarf level; but by far the worst is the agonizing tedium of the mouse. we genuinely cannot fathom why anyone - least of all the adams brothers, for whom playing the game is essentially a job - would prefer such an inaccurate and slow input method when what we had already was almost perfect.

the specific details of hotkeys are unimportant [though we really wonder what made them decide on b->p->r for doors...], and a dfhack plugin to display the current available ones onscreen in order to ease the cognitive load shouldn't take too long to materialise, so we have no real complaints nor desire to return to the old ones. but please, toady - if you change nothing else, let us ditch the mouse!!

I'm going to say all of the below as somebody who's been playing on-and-off since 2010. In addition, I agree the old control scheme should in some way be reimplemented as an option. However:
I'm seeing a trend of bitter veterans try the new Steam release for a few minutes, spend a few seconds looking for a function, are unable to find it, and immediately assume it's been axed and complain.
There's also the other ones who are seemingly suffering from extreme stockholm syndrome. Regarding what you said about the new labor system, it's untrue and you haven't bothered looking for the way to do it in the new version, but even if you were correct, it's still a good thing. The old v->p->l labor assigning was extremely tedious, obnoxious and unintuitive. Dwarf Therapist was required to make managing easier, and even that was still relatively tedious with having to scroll and manually assign per dwarf for any fortress above size 20. DFHack autolabor was a good step towards what we have now. Some people had convinced themselves the old labor system was good, most likely due to how long it existed in the game and in order to cope with it - and are now acting like an improved system is bad. I guess this was inevitable, given how people would be willing to overlook such problems to get to the meat of the game. Assigning say, engraving, to hundreds of dwarves previously was a terrible experience. Some others still knew how terrible it was even back then, hence the existence of Therapist. As I mentioned, you can still assign per-dwarf and micromanage as you wish in the new labor system, it's just not front and center and the *only* way to do things, as it should never have been. I applaud Tarn for having the courage to overhaul the system as he did, and it's made the game a lot more bearable and no longer mandates external tools for playability, which is a big plus for any game.

but by far the worst is the agonizing tedium of the mouse. we genuinely cannot fathom why anyone - least of all the adams brothers, for whom playing the game is essentially a job - would prefer such an inaccurate and slow input method when what we had already was almost perfect.

This is very closed-minded. I'll tell you why I, and a lot of other people prefer the mouse control over the original.

Exactly like the labor system, the old control scheme wasn't even close to perfect, you've just convinced yourself it was because you're used to it. You haven't even tried to see the positives of, and most likely even attempted to use the new mouse-based system. I've seen a similar situation with others, streamers and myself included, who insisted that the old system was perfect and begrudgingly tried the new, got used to it very quickly, and now can't imagine playing without. Unfortunately, this is a common occurrence across many games, where old-timers resent a change, are forced into trying it, and realizing it's better than what they've convinced themselves is perfect. To act as if some of the horrendous UI navigation controls were somehow faster than just moving and clicking once is dishonesty at worst, and rose-tinted glasses at best. If you disagree, I'd like you to explain to me how shift + to navigate each menu entry in a list was "faster" than a simple mouse move. Let's not even mention designations, which were an absolute nightmare with the keyboard. Needing macros to make it less tedious isn't a solution - it's part of the problem. Regarding "inaccuracy", if you're unable to click the huge buttons properly, I think you may need to get your hands, your vision, or your mouse hardware checked. It's not hard to use, and I'm not exactly a professional FPS player or anything.

tldr; The same way you genuinely cannot fathom why people would prefer mouse, I cannot fathom how people managed to play with the terrible keyboard controls. I say this after having to use them for many years.

So yes, while I do agree that Tarn should add the old schemes for those who spite modernization, I think it's fine to simply suggest he do so without being aggressive about it or attempting to project your coping of the old system onto others. Calm down, and remember that Tarn is a good guy and he'd most likely add them even if nobody complained. Same applies to things like the stair jank, he probably already knows and is working on it. Especially now that he has tons of support. I'm not sure why a lot of people seem to think he'd just release and ditch the game despite all of the past goodwill he's built up. Has the "Big wait" for the Steam release really soured people's trust that much?

I also do agree that announcements and reports need a dedicated window/UI, though. Am really missing those.

[Bumber]

Some of the old hotkeys were illogical, but what we've got now isn't much better. Doors are now in their own separate category with hatches accessed with 'p', for whatever reason.

I'm seeing a trend of bitter veterans try the new Steam release for a few minutes, spend a few seconds looking for a function, are unable to find it, and immediately assume it's been axed and complain.

To be fair, a number of things actually have been. Ammo assignment, room quality on rooms list, civilian alerts, fort health screen, searching "all" items to bring to depot, wagon access, specify mechanisms, and single tick advance.

To act as if some of the horrendous UI navigation controls were somehow faster than just moving and clicking once is dishonesty at worst, and rose-tinted glasses at best.

"Once" is kind of dishonest, isn't it? Building constructions/furniture requires multiple clicks all over the screen. Particularly terrible is the removal of the ability to select as many as possible of a material (10x10 floor = 100 extra clicks) with shift+enter. Edit: Added in v50.03

Used to be able to trade all items in bins excluding the bins themselves using a down->enter macro (or just spamming those keys.) Now you have to click on every item checkbox individually.

Most workshop items had key binds. Now you need to scroll down for them or use search (requires keyboard anyway.)

[Putnam]

"Once" is kind of dishonest, isn't it? Building constructions/furniture requires multiple clicks all over the screen. Particularly terrible is the removal of the ability to select as many as possible of a material (10x10 floor = 100 extra clicks) with shift+enter.

That is indeed terrible, but building furniture always required multiple presses, even more than what we currently have. With DFHack you could reduce it to e.g. down-down-enter-down-down-enter-down-down-enter-down-down-enter for beds and doors or whatever, but without DFHack you were forced to do down-down-enter-enter-down-down-enter-enter and your macro would end up continuing when you ran out of materials. Now you can just select "use closest material" and check "keep building after placement" and it's one click per building, exactly as said. Even my carpal tunnel ass thinks this is less work.

[Lightman]

I'm going to say all of the below as somebody who's been playing on-and-off since 2010. In addition, I agree the old control scheme should in some way be reimplemented as an option. However:
I'm seeing a trend of bitter veterans [...]

There's also the other ones who are seemingly suffering from extreme stockholm syndrome [...] Dwarf Therapist was required to make managing easier [...]

This is very closed-minded. I'll tell you why I, and a lot of other people prefer the mouse control over the original [...]

To act as if some of the horrendous UI navigation controls were somehow faster than just moving and clicking once is dishonesty at worst, and rose-tinted glasses at best.

[...] if you're unable to click the huge buttons properly, I think you may need to get your hands, your vision, or your mouse hardware checked. It's not hard to use, and I'm not exactly a professional FPS player or anything.

So yes, while I do agree that Tarn should add the old schemes for those who spite modernization, I think it's fine to simply suggest he do so without being aggressive about it or attempting to project your coping of the old system onto others.

I also do agree that announcements and reports need a dedicated window/UI, though. Am really missing those.

I am sure there are veterans who, as you described, got frustrated with the game before giving it a fair chance. There are a lot of changes. Is "b, p, r, <click>" better than "b, d, enter, enter"? Probably not but it doesn't seem worse.

As a veteran player, I'm excited to see the changes and improvements. At the same time, that doesn't negate legitimate issues that people have. This is an initial release and it should be expected that there are problems.

While I agree with your overall sentiment, I would also suggest avoiding aggression and projection from your side. I think you could say that you like the new system and that you think some players are being unfair, without some of the less-constructive comments above.

Incidentally, I have always played vanilla DF and played without Dwarf Therapist. I never thought the UI was good but it worked... mostly.

[Mohreb el Yasim]

"Once" is kind of dishonest, isn't it? Building constructions/furniture requires multiple clicks all over the screen. Particularly terrible is the removal of the ability to select as many as possible of a material (10x10 floor = 100 extra clicks) with shift+enter.

That is indeed terrible, but building furniture always required multiple presses, even more than what we currently have. With DFHack you could reduce it to e.g. down-down-enter-down-down-enter-down-down-enter-down-down-enter for beds and doors or whatever, but without DFHack you were forced to do down-down-enter-enter-down-down-enter-enter and your macro would end up continuing when you ran out of materials. Now you can just select "use closest material" and check "keep building after placement" and it's one click per building, exactly as said. Even my carpal tunnel ass thinks this is less work.

But can not be macroed anymore.
As well as building stockpiles. It was macroable and when you try to set up 60 farms, with 120 stockpiles (don't ask why) it helps to macro at least the placements.

[ayy1337]

Controls feel very clunky to me. One issue for instance: if you set up arrow hotkeys to move around the map instead of WASD, arrows move the cursor for mining AND the map at the same time. If you use space as exit and play/pause, 90% of the time it does the play/pause even though you have something up.
To cancel digging you have to get out of the digging menu and then click x?

The controls should definitely be such that you don't need the mouse much or at all, since playing on a laptop with just the touchpad means heavy mouse usage is extremely painful. Plus this is the way basically every fan has played since forever, so removing that possibility seems a bit.. idk, careless?

Placing stockpiles, why do you need to go and click this little icon down the bottom to begin placing one? Also double clicking a category should toggle enable/disable all. A +/- button to add repeats of a build order for beds and stuff, with shift and control for 10/100 - a feature total annihilation had back in the 90s.

Some of the hotkey choices are weird, d is great for digging, l would seem the natural choice for the labours menu, chair and table should still be c and t, workshops should be w etc.

Some changes are absolutely a positive though, I like the work details; much better to have definable job groups than have to individually assign labours to every dwarf.

[ZM5]

I am sure there are veterans who, as you described, got frustrated with the game before giving it a fair chance. There are a lot of changes. Is "b, p, r, <click>" better than "b, d, enter, enter"? Probably not but it doesn't seem worse.

As a veteran player, I'm excited to see the changes and improvements. At the same time, that doesn't negate legitimate issues that people have. This is an initial release and it should be expected that there are problems.

While I agree with your overall sentiment, I would also suggest avoiding aggression and projection from your side. I think you could say that you like the new system and that you think some players are being unfair, without some of the less-constructive comments above.

Incidentally, I have always played vanilla DF and played without Dwarf Therapist. I never thought the UI was good but it worked... mostly.

There's new players as well who have shared concerns similar to those of the veterans, it's definitely not just "bitterness" - people have legitimate issues with the new UI, the lack of hotkeys or other features.

[Salmeuk]

Now you can just select "use closest material" and check "keep building after placement" and it's one click per building, exactly as said. Even my carpal tunnel ass thinks this is less work.

 this is useless for people who enjoy specificity in design ... so its useless for a lot of players

===

look, to completely dismiss people who don't want to use a mouse is a bit silly. DF made it's niche and then, with this new version, sort of failed to retain that feeling, and is honestly very much a different game because of it. this is not something objective, but entirely subjective.

So when you dismiss various opinions as "you only tried it out for a few minutes, you have stockholm syndrome" what are you even saying? That players who enjoy a game for certain features or functions are wrong? They are simply, "bitter"  look its been out for like a week or so, bitter isn't even the right vocabulary word for the situation lol.  How can you write that out without laughing at yourself?


it is also telling that you dismiss the various "stop-gap" measures that actually functioned perfectly fine for what they were. I did not use therapist, I did not use autolabor; instead, I used the labor managment screen accessible from the 'l' key within the unit list with DFhack installed. This screen is perfection, imo - it displays immediately the skill level of the dwarves, allowing you to highlight entire groupings of skills at once, AS WELL AS allowing you to create custom profiles to apply to whatever dwarf you wish.

This sort of thing should have been considered in the new version. Again, there is no bitterness here, just confusion - you want people to play this game, but you provide them with hampered tools for doing so?

look, us veterans are just waiting for DFhack so again, this really is not the stockholm syndrome you think it is. merely stating how silly these changes are in comparison to readily available community sourced plugins is, well, not an invalid way to criticize a game.

To act as if some of the horrendous UI navigation controls were somehow faster than just moving and clicking once is dishonesty at worst, and rose-tinted glasses at best.

tldr; The same way you genuinely cannot fathom why people would prefer mouse, I cannot fathom how people managed to play with the terrible keyboard controls. I say this after having to use them for many years.

look, I don't know what game you are playing, but I can play old DF like 5x as efficiently as the new version, even after putting in 20+ hours over the last week trying to figure out if it truly is as broken as people are claiming. And yeah, I am not compelled by the idea that I will now need to spend 5 hours for every 1 that I used to spend doing various tasks.

please read into the history of the mouse-user interface in contrast to the keyboard, you might educate yourself into a new opinion. also, somewhat ableist to dismiss people's valid complaints about being unable to use a mouse due to various medical conditions....

FOR INSTANCE, in my most recent megaproject The Spry Volcano, I spent a good amount of time designating walls. However, due to the fact I was building a pyramid, I needed to create a series of slopes, which were not simple to designate, in fact this required a significant investment of time to simply lay down the plans.

The new version does NOTHING to support this style of building. So particularly creative players see little to no gain from the new methods of construction designation . . . in fact, they see losses in productivity.

It's not like the new interface makes things less tedious, its just different tedious, so like... what gives?

So yes, while I do agree that Tarn should add the old schemes for those who spite modernization, I think it's fine to simply suggest he do so without being aggressive about it or attempting to project your coping of the old system onto others.

please don't project the hastily written posts of a few forum-goers onto the whole crowd. your use of dismissive language also belies a certain misplaced snark - what community are you a part of, that makes you think that tone is appropriate?

[Shonai_Dweller]

Again, spreadsheets were considered and Tarn absolutely does not want a spreadsheet in his game.

He conceded in a more recent interview that burying one deep in the interface for fans of micromanagement would probably be a good thing. So I expect he wants people to actually try the game as he wants it played first, before adding the advanced features.

Or he just accepts that DfHack and Therapist already have several years head start on designing something he doesn't want to design, so why bother? (But that's just me randomly thinking out loud).

[Putnam]

Now you can just select "use closest material" and check "keep building after placement" and it's one click per building, exactly as said. Even my carpal tunnel ass thinks this is less work.

 this is useless for people who enjoy specificity in design ... so its useless for a lot of players

Good thing the context had literally nothing to do with specificity of design, then?? It was about how many button presses it takes to mass place bedrooms.

it is also telling that you dismiss the various "stop-gap" measures that actually functioned perfectly fine for what they were. I did not use therapist, I did not use autolabor; instead, I used the labor managment screen accessible from the 'l' key within the unit list with DFhack installed. This screen is perfection, imo - it displays immediately the skill level of the dwarves, allowing you to highlight entire groupings of skills at once, AS WELL AS allowing you to create custom profiles to apply to whatever dwarf you wish.

Legitimately do not know what part of the current system does not do the parts you pointed out. Dwarves are sorted on the work detail screen by skill and custom profiles are the easy part. I legitimately do not know why you need to see the skills before assigning labors when it's the labors that are important.

[MrNewVegas]

[ The same way you genuinely cannot fathom why people would prefer mouse, I cannot fathom how people managed to play with the terrible keyboard controls. I say this after having to use them for many years.

They keyboard controls weren't terrible though, they were at best unintuitive (all hotkeys are unintuitive, who on earth would think ctrl + v is a good idea for paste if it was not already standard) but there's not really any argument that they weren't quick once you got going. For me at least, I can touch-type DF, and that means it's going to be pretty quick to do things.

Sure, it took a long time to work out how it all works, but that's just how touch typing works, you have to get used to it. I don't know, maybe I'm misunderstanding why people think the mouse is better than the keyboard but I don't think most of DF interface was actually bad (excluding labours and the military screen, but even the military screen is not that bad) and for a nested-menu game like DF knowing the hotkeys means I barely even notice menus. People want to use the mouse because it often offers some great advantage over the keyboard (because it's a mouse) but even using dfhack I did not find myself using the mouse that often. I had to take my hands away from the keyboard to click on things, and that meant giving up access to camera control on the arrow keys and half the hotkeys. Really didn't feel like a great value proposition, even for just designating things. Best use was massive designation projects or building huge hollow boxes of walls, which didn't happen that often, but I can see why some people would want it.

I guess I just expected Tarn would build mouse support on top of the old UI rather than excising it altogether, but I suppose after nearly three years a lot can change.