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Author Topic: LGBTQ+ Thread  (Read 78732 times)

TD1

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #855 on: August 08, 2023, 07:44:04 am »

Just 'cause something's been around doesn't mean it's been used a certain way (and thus had sufficient institutional backing).

There was a big scare over the health implications of HRT at the turn of the century, which I'd bet slowed its implementation.

The wheels of institutions turn slowly, my friend.**

**As a historian I feel I need to addend that this is assuming there are no major social or economic upheavals catalysing some form of changing institutional zeitgeist or what-have-you.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #856 on: August 08, 2023, 10:07:14 am »

It's... been around for about a half a century, and used pretty regularly for better than twenty years. Not sure if young is the right word for that.
Basically what TD1 said. Clinical trial research isn't just testing new drugs/procedures/medicines/treatments, but also testing new applications of them/different application methods/different combinations/methodologies e.t.c.

A good example would be one biologic drug we worked on that was already approved for use in asthma, but not yet for nasal polyps. Even though the drug was approved for one use it's treated as a completely new therapy when used for a completely different purpose. Clinical trial research on HRT goes back to the 90s for post-menopausal treatment in AFAB women, 2008 for aging treatment in AMAB men in their 40s-50s, and there have been some starts from 2016 onwards into HRT for gender reassignment (FTM and MTF). Some countries have not had any trial studies done yet, and some areas of the therapy are lacking in study and attention, e.g.:

To date, no studies evaluating the perioperative risk of thromboembolism have been conducted in patients receiving feminizing hormone therapy.
Some reasonable inferences and comparisons with other populations can be inferred, but are not sufficient, since everyone's body is unique and will respond to different therapies in different ways. Without that body of evidence it's harder to make an accurate and informed assessment over what are the most likely adverse outcomes.

AM.  whereas there is a lack of comparable data on available, accessible and quality transgender-specific healthcare, and products used in hormone replacement therapy are not properly tested and licensed;
Refer to this 2017 European Parliament notice discussing various gender related issues, including the paucity of clinical trial information

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Clinical trials for HRT for gender reassignment started in 2019, so whether as gender identity treatment or as age/treatment/disease-related replacement therapy it's young. It's not an important distinction, and I don't know if there is any political value in a therapy being young or old, because the only value is really in as a descriptor between a therapy that has had hundreds of millions of users and generations of research in side-effects & uses like with salbutamol, versus ones where long term effects/side effects/applications are unknown and you literally just have to wait until studies are completed before you fill that blindspot, as with biologics.

This is only compounded in the youth of clincal studies into gender dysphoria itself, which is best seen in the dramatic implosion of the Tavistock centre:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But Hobbs argues this criticism is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what affirmative means. “For me, affirmative is starting from a stance that says gender diversity isn’t a disorder but has existed across cultures through history. It is saying ‘I believe you’ when you tell me about your experience. It is developing a strong relationship based on trust and mutual respect, but it doesn’t mean you don’t explore.”
This is another thing that complicates how medicine & LGBTQ+ cross paths, because an endocrinologist or a gender specialist is going to be going in with the mindset of "identify pathology, identify cause(s) and come to cure" whereas for patients it's about choosing who they want to be. Which to be diplomatic, is not something someone with a "clinical" mindset may be equipped to deal with, as there's a reason why "clinical" is considered a synonym for "cold." The medical staff disagreeing even on how to identify and treat dysphoria in Tavistock is illustrative:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The whole centre was run very much with the mindset of dealing with the high volume backlog of patients on the waiting list, rushing to treatment despite the lack of clinical studies meaning informed consent was not provided. There are a lot of difficulties when it comes to running clinical studies of gender dysphoria and related therapies, compared to something more easily defined & observable like high blood pressure or asthma. There's also the political factor in that a lot of investigators are bloody terrified of the public attention that gender-related topics get, and the general reluctance to fund/engage with anything published that doesn't come with an easily digestible conclusion.

Now after all those dismal acknowledgements, I must add that the experimentality or youth of a therapy is not a black mark against a treatment. Novel therapies are exciting because they are new and offer solutions to problems where before there were none, or solutions were inadequate or came with undesirable side effects. The Covid-19 vaccines are very good recent examples of where treatments were rushed through normal clinical trial processes, did result in even lethal side effects in some cases, but the overall good rendered the cost worth it (and like HRT, was also used as a political football). Tavistock's failures were not because they used experimental treatments with side effects, it's because they ignored rules on informed consent and proper diagnostic procedures. The patient who took them to court for example was told hormone blockers and mastectomy would be reversible, and staff whistleblowers reported the same despite this just being an obvious falsehood. You would be mindful to inform a child and their parents that taking prednisolone for treating asthma could stunt their child's growth, so it's an aberration to say the least that Tavistock did not append the same caution to HRT or hormone blockers -_-

Apologies in advance if this comes off as highly critical or pessimistic. There are people honestly doing good research here that is worth reading if one is interested, and it's worth noting their methodologies, challenges, successes and failures, since they have issues with high patient attrition rates, small patient recruitable populations. And while there is always going to be the fear that to observe negative side effects or outcomes of a treatment is to discredit it completely, this is not the case, but is a necessary duty of clinical trial workers. That is obvious for any other therapy, but obviously becomes odious if one's study observing the effects on bone density or cardiovascular health on HRT is used as "ammunition" in a culture war & trans erasure. There are those who take the view it's akin to "airing one's dirty laundry" amidst the current environment where the West is arguing over whether non-binary conforming identities are valid in the court of law and civil society, but the alternative is real people get hurt and that produces far more ammunition than any published study ever will, so morally and politically it's necessary. In an ideal world there would be more observational and randomised studies already and so people would be able to find the best treatment plan out of many options, but we're not there yet

McTraveller

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #857 on: August 08, 2023, 10:38:22 am »

Care is definitely needed - experimenting on physiology and psychology is not like experimenting on machines, software, etc...  You can afford to throw machines or code away, and machines and stuff can easily be reverted to an earlier configuration.

But experimenting on people is generally irreversible; almost always on an individual basis, and often on a collective basis.
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TD1

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #858 on: August 08, 2023, 11:52:02 am »

As a general rule I wouldn't recommend a PhD to my worst enemy, but I will say that LW would be good at one.
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EuchreJack

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #859 on: August 08, 2023, 11:07:41 pm »

As a general rule I wouldn't recommend a PhD to my worst enemy, but I will say that LW would be good at one.
LW probably already has one. Even if it's drawn in crayon.

alway

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #860 on: August 10, 2023, 11:46:09 am »

Except most of that info is flat out incorrect. Puberty blockers have been studied and in use for many decades for cis children; hrt for cis people goes back to around 1940. Pretending these things suddenly aren't safe because it's a trans person using them is nonsense fearmongering.

Likewise, nonsense fearmongering about things like "bone density." The only loss in bone density and other issues you get is when cis doctors decide you should have lower doses than you actually need, or prevent you from going from blockers to hrt, because they are chickenshit cowards harming their patients because of fearmongering over negative effects of hrt. This is very common because of bullshit like what you're posting. That shit does real harm.
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Magmacube_tr

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #861 on: August 13, 2023, 03:23:45 pm »

Do any of you know Heartstopper? I discovered its existence just yesterday and read ALL of it in the same day.

It is good shit. Maybe even the best. It is just so sweet. It warmed my cold, dead haert.

Please tell me you read it. I NEED to talk about it.
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Rolan7

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #862 on: August 13, 2023, 04:05:53 pm »

Ooh, not yet sorry, but I have heard some friends enthuse about it!

I've been eagerly consuming a lovely comic about a commoner girl who managed to become a knight despite all odds, even a famous knight, but by foul betrayal she is killed and her homeland crushed- and she reawakens in the body of a spoiled and physically frail princess of the conquering empire.  It's a fascinating story of a warrior learning what it is to be a lady, despite her wishes.  it's also romantic

But I'll share it after I've checked this out- I'm at an excellent stopping point where I've already gleaned some good gender <3
Thanks!
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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #863 on: August 13, 2023, 04:28:31 pm »

Can't help you directly on that [and am now ninjaed!], but it crossed my various news crosshairs for random reasons not so long ago and I think this article was the one that made me aware of it. Sounds like it hits the spot (from your reaction, as well as the article), so thought it worthwhile revisiting and passing on to anyone else heretofar as unaware as myself.

(I did discover the other day that there's a further novel in Ann Leckie's "Ancillary" series, that might be worth patronising my local bookstore for, after too long an absence from even a general browse. But I think I've mentioned that universe's tangential relevence to this thread, before, even if it's the scifi plot/etc that's my primary interest.)
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Rolan7

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #864 on: August 13, 2023, 09:59:32 pm »

Do any of you know Heartstopper? I discovered its existence just yesterday and read ALL of it in the same day.

It is good shit. Maybe even the best. It is just so sweet. It warmed my cold, dead haert.

Please tell me you read it. I NEED to talk about it.
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« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 10:06:21 pm by Rolan7 »
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Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Loud Whispers

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #865 on: August 14, 2023, 09:08:06 am »

As a general rule I wouldn't recommend a PhD to my worst enemy, but I will say that LW would be good at one.
The only thing that matters for PhDs is don't bully the technicians ;-;

TD1

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #866 on: August 14, 2023, 09:20:58 am »

Oh yea totally

*Hides the tell-tale jangle of loose change in his pocket*
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Magmacube_tr

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #867 on: August 14, 2023, 09:36:54 am »


1-8
I made a *mmph* squeal and grabbed my face, ironically enhancing the effect
You can't- you can't just do that, man!!
*blushing wildly*

1-9
"I could be anyone, you don't give a shit!" - mood

1-10

NO CHARLIE YOU IDIOT

1-11

NO LEAVE THE SCRUNKLY ALONE YOU TIKTOKER LOOKIN BITCH
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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #868 on: August 14, 2023, 11:00:28 am »

I just finished chapter 2 and yaaay but also nooooo
I did SUPER like
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Google searches were also mood
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Magmacube_tr

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Re: LGBTQ+ Thread
« Reply #869 on: August 15, 2023, 11:20:40 am »

3-1

no dont cri. if u cri, i cri.

3-3

All is good.
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