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[Imic]

What I'd love, absolutely love to do, would be to start wearing goth platform boots. I love boots, I love 'em so much, but I have nowhere near the self confidence to overcome my anxiety and go full goth in public. I'd love to wear a skirt, and tights, and a crop top and- fuck it, a corset too, corsets are cool. But, the idea also terrifies me. Anxiety's a bitch. I guess it just makes me sad that it's socially acceptable for Women to wear Men's clothing but, yeah, the "acceptable" spectrum of Men's clothing starts at plain shirts and ends at shirts with band logos printed on them, with anything outside that spectrum being "alt".

... With all that being said, I will admit to having contemplated the possibility of me being trans on more than one occasion, though I don't think it to be the case... probably.

[Tiruin]

So a fun thing about the narratives we say against the toxicity of oppression is that it's never limited to us or within the label, as nicely envisioned in this example (though on the toxicity of "passing" as it usually is when the environment is in omission), of which I bring up JoCat, a wonderful guy.



Clothing has no gender and it's what people give and bring onto something that adds meaning or value. Go explore! The labels that apply are those you choose. Them stuff with yourself is trying things out, and it's better anyway the more you know because the conclusions come by you first. c:

[TD1]

*Snip*

Hrrrm.

I have no doubt that the French Revolution, and a general rebellion against nobility/aristocracy in Europe, was tributary to fashion changes. But I doubt that the French Revolution was the source.

Look at Oscar Wilde, for instance. Dandies were condemned for snobbery and effeminate clothing, but nevertheless there was still a cultural construct capable of maintaining their lifestyle more than a decade after the French revolution.

I'd say we ought to look broader than one event. Revolution is a mindset, not an event, to paraphrase Jim Butcher.

The French revolution, which targeted the trappings of a particular way of life, came at the same time as the Industrial Revolution. Things, including clothes, were made en masse - and capitalists love shaving pennies off the cost of production. Goodbye lace, embroidery, decoration. These were all time consuming, produced by hand and expensive.

Another significant revolution was spiritual. The Reformation, begun in the early sixteenth century, established criticism of ornamentation and boisterous colour. This extended beyond criticism of ornate Catholic cathedrals and into critique of individual dress. Good works defined man, and the rich man could not make it through the gates of heaven. Sobriety and charity were not indicated by boisterous clothing.

The paintings of the Dutch Republic show spiritual men in sombre black.

The third revolution, and I'd argue the most significant, was in travel. Globalism established a mono-culture dominated by colonising powers such as the American and European nations. Mass-production of drab factory clothing would not have mattered were it restricted to a single nation, but it wasn't. Cheap clothing dominated the global market, undercutting clothiers everywhere.

There were more contributory factors, but I've said enough to illustrate that the French revolution was a symptom of broader societal changes which influenced fashion and - besides - that other events and even mentalites contributed to today's bland fashion for men.

[alway]

What I'd love, absolutely love to do, would be to start wearing goth platform boots. I love boots, I love 'em so much, but I have nowhere near the self confidence to overcome my anxiety and go full goth in public. I'd love to wear a skirt, and tights, and a crop top and- fuck it, a corset too, corsets are cool. But, the idea also terrifies me. Anxiety's a bitch. I guess it just makes me sad that it's socially acceptable for Women to wear Men's clothing but, yeah, the "acceptable" spectrum of Men's clothing starts at plain shirts and ends at shirts with band logos printed on them, with anything outside that spectrum being "alt".

... With all that being said, I will admit to having contemplated the possibility of me being trans on more than one occasion, though I don't think it to be the case... probably.

I do recommend acting on that; exploring presentation is terrifying, but quite satisfying. Learning to overcome that fear/anxiety of going against the grain of society is something I find quite beneficial in other areas of life as well, and it really is a skill that gets built up over time.

Half a decade ago, when I was exploring gender and presentation stuff, I picked up some skirts from amazon, thigh high socks from sockdreams, and my favorite dataerase jacket. It was a really interesting experience: I'd get some weird looks from folks on occasion, but at the same time, I started getting frequent compliments on my outfits from strangers while out of the house; which isn't something I'd ever really got before. I came to the conclusion that I liked that (and also that I was a girl; but that part would have been irrelevant to me continuing to wear it on the regular).

Spoiler: Though honestly my outfits do deserve to be complimented tbh, I can see why people would do so (click to show/hide)

[Mech#4]

What I'd love, absolutely love to do, would be to start wearing goth platform boots. I love boots, I love 'em so much, but I have nowhere near the self confidence to overcome my anxiety and go full goth in public. I'd love to wear a skirt, and tights, and a crop top and- fuck it, a corset too, corsets are cool. But, the idea also terrifies me. Anxiety's a bitch. I guess it just makes me sad that it's socially acceptable for Women to wear Men's clothing but, yeah, the "acceptable" spectrum of Men's clothing starts at plain shirts and ends at shirts with band logos printed on them, with anything outside that spectrum being "alt".

... With all that being said, I will admit to having contemplated the possibility of me being trans on more than one occasion, though I don't think it to be the case... probably.

Those big soled boots do look pretty neat. I remember thinking about getting some but figuring that, unless I got a really good brand, the sole would probably fall off pretty quickly.

I do like the whole goth culture of clothing. Sure the whole "everyone is wearing similar clothes they bought from Hot Topic to not conform" is true to a degree, but I admire the confidence to be able to do so.

I think when it comes to clothing, I like androgyny and wish it was easier to wear some clothes meant for women. I wouldn't be one for skirts or such, I don't like having my legs or arms exposed, but more variety would be nice. It's part of why I like JJBA and am happy it's reached broader appeal. The clothing designs in that are very out there for male characters.

[Imic]

Stop encouraging me, youse're gonna make me do something I won't regret 

[Mech#4]

Heh, I'll stop myself from ranting about it all, but this:

Clothing has no gender and it's what people give and bring onto something that adds meaning or value. Go explore! The labels that apply are those you choose. Them stuff with yourself is trying things out, and it's better anyway the more you know because the conclusions come by you first. c:

How arbitrary some differences are really annoys me. Like with belts as I mentioned... or disposable razors.

[Loud Whispers]

I have no doubt that the French Revolution, and a general rebellion against nobility/aristocracy in Europe, was tributary to fashion changes. But I doubt that the French Revolution was the source.
Look at Oscar Wilde, for instance. Dandies were condemned for snobbery and effeminate clothing, but nevertheless there was still a cultural construct capable of maintaining their lifestyle more than a decade after the French revolution.

To bring up my earlier example, which is strikingly relevant here, it's rather like some of the Chinese couples I saw in Beijing wandering around in traditional Hanfu clothes. Which is to say that there exists the people and the subculture who do dress in the traditional clothes, but the effect of Western fashions has made it such that the traditional clothes are no longer a living, normal cultural construct which evolves with the times - but is instead a static thing which exists in contrast, in its own sphere where the fact of wearing it is treated as a rebellious act, and not an ordinary act. Dandies would not have been dandies just 1750s, but in the 1790s the fact that they doubled down on traditional fashion and wore lace and breeches in direct opposition to the without-breeches fashion is what I mean. French rev merked fashion

The French revolution, which targeted the trappings of a particular way of life, came at the same time as the Industrial Revolution. Things, including clothes, were made en masse - and capitalists love shaving pennies off the cost of production. Goodbye lace, embroidery, decoration. These were all time consuming, produced by hand and expensive.

I'll have to agree with you, since the perspective you advocate is full of such wisdom and sagacity as to be without counter-argument. The only exception perhaps is that industrialisation actually increased the demand for luxurious fashion. One of the fondest things I ever studied at University was the history of the rise of conspicuous consumers in London - which arguably featured the first community of non-aristocratic but wealthy wastrels whose sole vocation was to be seen spending money. Moroccan leather, Chinese silk damascs, Italian lace and Indian wool & cotton were all in incredibly high demand by conspicuous consumers - one amazing dress in the London history museum made 400 years ago was made for a lady by Chinese tailors using measurements made to order and shipped to the UK, taking 2 years to arrive. The importation of so many foreign textiles upended the English wool industry which had hitherto been the backbone of English industry & taxation since the time of the Normans (I exaggerate, but it was a major source of income and tax revenues for people and King), and a lot of the peoples involved in the wool trade were inevitably threatened by changing tastes of fashion. In one amusing incident, a very well-off lady was wandering around in her fine Chinese silks, when two wool spinners picked her up and nailed her dress to a post in protest! However the ire of the wool tradesmen soon died down when they began embracing changes in industrial looming that allowed English workers to make more money working Egyptian cotton or Indian calico than they would sticking to the wool trade. I doubt the industrial revolution would necessarily have a negative or positive effect on fashion diversity, as there are industrial nations known for experimenting with fashion just as there are known for not. But what is key is that in the following centuries Western fashion was marketed as the clothes of civilisation, progress, normality, and the world has never shaken those ideas since

Another significant revolution was spiritual. The Reformation, begun in the early sixteenth century, established criticism of ornamentation and boisterous colour. This extended beyond criticism of ornate Catholic cathedrals and into critique of individual dress. Good works defined man, and the rich man could not make it through the gates of heaven. Sobriety and charity were not indicated by boisterous clothing.

The paintings of the Dutch Republic show spiritual men in sombre black.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You can't be wearing those colours in this abbey brother

The third revolution, and I'd argue the most significant, was in travel. Globalism established a mono-culture dominated by colonising powers such as the American and European nations. Mass-production of drab factory clothing would not have mattered were it restricted to a single nation, but it wasn't. Cheap clothing dominated the global market, undercutting clothiers everywhere.

Globalism and imperialism decided that there would be one standardised fashion across the world, but it wasn't a guaranteed fact that the fashion would be so boring.

Stop encouraging me, youse're gonna make me do something I won't regret 

That goth scene got me acting unwise

[Great Order]

I hate to stereotype, but I'm beginning to find that a lot of online trans spaces are really making me not want to engage with them for a few reasons that seem to be common.

1) There's a lot of "UwU Good Girl" type stuff that I just find cringey. Done as an occasional joke it'd be fine, but it's constant and chucked at literally everyone regardless of their opinions on it.
2) Way too much negativity and overdramatisation. I saw someone seriously arguing, with others supporting them, that most cis people treat us like pre-civil rights black people. I get it, a lot of people view us as dangerous, perverts, etc. etc., but the sheer amount of constant doomerism is absurd and honestly, I can see it being self-defeating.
3) There are some really awful hot takes. I still get a bit pissed off about the person who told me that I *need* to be an out-and-proud trans person or else I'm basically betraying everyone else.

It's part of why I'm not too keen on my psychiatrist's recommendation that I go and basically do trans networking. Maybe I've got a bit of a warped view because of being exposed to online spaces rather than ones with people face-to-face, but I dread coming across people like this in real life. On top of that, I really don't want being trans to be a big part of my identity. I mean, it is, it's impossible for it not to be, but I don't want my life to heavily focus around it. I want to transition and just get on with life really.


Sorry for dropping a chunk of negativity on here, it's just beginning to get to me a bit. It feels like I'm wading through a load of crud when I'm trying to find help and advice.

[Rose]

Uuuugh.

Yeah, I moderate support server for trans people in the greater portland metro, and we have to routinely tell people to cut it out when they do points 2 and 3. Thankfully point 1 is less common here.

Also thankfully I managed to join a little bay12 irc channel that later turned out to be full of trans people, and it doesn't have any of that shit and the people there have been great.

[LadyBrassroast]

A lot of trans people who do the annoying shit are just kids who are stuck in unsupportive homes and the internet is their only outlet, people calm down when they get to come out and go outside and live in their real gender and etc.

[Vector]

Honestly I think that trans networking is very good, but the point is to make some trans friends who are cool and have some chill. My experience has been that trans people who are marginalized on some other axis (not only queer stuff) are virtually all awesome and fun and good vibes.

And then when you get a couple of the less marginalized trans people in a group that's more mellow they can be convinced to also become more relaxed. It's all about developing social norms.

I don't think I've ever gone in for a trans-only internet space myself though, I just tend to end up in a lot of spaces that happen to have a lot of us.

[Rolan7]

I don't think I've ever gone in for a trans-only internet space myself though, I just tend to end up in a lot of spaces that happen to have a lot of us.

It's interesting how that keeps happening (this community for example, as has been noted).  I know of two theories I agree with:

1) Neurodivergent people tend to congregate, and that statistically means more people who question gender and perhaps find a disconnect.  The neurodivergent have an offset perspective which can lead to critical analysis of social mores.

2) People who already knew they were different coming out as such once they feel safe saying so, following some well-received pioneers.

The latter can apply to a lot of groups, like furries or Homestucks.  Or bad groups who are intolerant, so we must be careful.  Being discerning in who is accepted into a community makes it all the more meaningful when openly queer people are accepted.

That said, I'm all for "containment" threads like this or channels on discords, because there's a difference between accepting trans people and needing to see our stuff all the time.  (particularly the cringe stuff from GO's first section).  Maybe or maybe not it's fine that I'm still mentioning my transness (nonbinary genderfluid dream hijinks) in other threads, but it's very good to have a relief valve where I can uWu or w/e.  (I'm 36 and HRT has me comfortably unhorny, though I enjoy my relationships).

[nenjin]

3) There are some really awful hot takes. I still get a bit pissed off about the person who told me that I *need* to be an out-and-proud trans person or else I'm basically betraying everyone else.

This is the one that always gets me >.>. About 6 years ago or so I started seeing chatter about trans rights activists taking the tactic of "no one is our ally." That even people who agreed with you had to be treated in some way as if they weren't, to constantly push the envelope further and get more support out of people than they were already giving. A sort of take-no-prisoners attitude even amongst allies and supporters. An un-passable purity test.

While many things may not be equal, at least we can observe that bad takes and being toxic knows no boundaries.

[Vector]

I think it's interesting because some trans people end up in a place where they're like "post-transition I want a life isomorphic to a cis person and I am just like them" and others end up absolutely feral