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[notquitethere]

We need to invite more people into the tournament just for the purpose of having more cards reviewed or banned!

[Elephant Parade]

But then they'll submit overpowered cards of their own and we'll be right back where we started! It's a vicious cycle!

[notquitethere]

I am incrementally getting better at weeding out the worst overpowered designs. We all know I'm not perfect at this, but I've learned some of what shouldn't allowed....

[notquitethere]

Elephant Parade wins vs NQT

Both players enter the design phase. I will review Biodiversity and Verdant Growth. Maybe someone wants to rare that maid combo away.

Spoiler: Rankings (Updated: 7th Nov, 22) (click to show/hide)

PLAYER	W	L	D	AUTO	BOUTS	VP
TricMagic	4	1	0	2	6/12	29
Supernerd	0	2	0	-10	12/12	0
Unraveller	1	3	0	1	5/12	9
Stirk	2	2	0	1	5/12	14
Failbird105	1	2	0	2	5/12	13
notquitethere	2	2	0	2	6/12	18
Elephant Parade	2	0	0	2	4/12	18

[Elephant Parade]

Review Mirror Maid. It's a powerful reversal card, but not being able to spend stars while it's in your hand works as both a downside and a "tell." Now, if you could play it out of nowhere without it ever entering your hand, it'd be a little buste—

...you may immediately play Mirror Maid from your hand, or draw and discard cards in your deck until you find Mirror Maid and play it.

Oh, right, you can. Thanks to Avenging Maid, the draw-and-discard effect isn't even a drawback. I think you should only be able to play this card from your hand.

Review Unlimited Maid Works. Let's break down what this card does: in exchange for one draw (itself), one action (playing it), and eight stars (its cost), you get the equivalent of three draws (the three cards you play with it), three actions (ditto), and an unknown but likely >8 number of stars (those cards' costs). That you get to play those cards from your entire remaining deck only makes it more overpowered. Here are some sample Unlimited Maid Works plays:

• Battle Butler/Battle Butler/Battleship Maid: Puts a 17/17 direct attacker on the board plus two 6/9 blockers/attackers—and if there are already Battle Butlers on the board, those numbers will climb even higher.
• Battle Butler/Battle Butler/Battle Butler: Three 9/12s and +9/+9 to any other Maids on the field. There are probably other Maids on the field.
• Battle Butler/Battle Butler/Avenging Maid: This one actually happened.
• Unlimited Maid Works/Unlimited Maid Works/Unlimited Maid Works: No comment.
  

An 8* card that did any one of these things would be overpowered. An 8* card that does all of these things and endless others is way overpowered.

And as if that wasn't enough, you can search and 0-cost it with Omnipotent Goddess Waifu. Your opponent will get to play their own 0-cost first, of course, but cost aside, Unlimited Maid Works is one of the most powerful cards in the game, so that might not help much.

Proposed nerf: make it either search three Maids from your deck or play three Maids from your hand (you still have to pay the star cost), not both. Either of these effects is still extremely strong—the former is a triple search, the latter is a triple action—but they aren't Win Next Turn strong the way the current UMW is.

[Stirk]

Why do my cards keep getting nerfed >_>

My combos arn't anything compared to the nonsense everyone else is pulling

[Elephant Parade]

Why do my cards keep getting nerfed >_>

My combos arn't anything compared to the nonsense everyone else is pulling

"Unlimited Maid Works! Zero cost edition!"



Stirk: 14 Hearts 6 Stars
Field: Mirror Maid 6/7, Battle Butler 6/9, Battle Butler 6/9, Avenging Maid (22/22)

[Stirk]

I draw a card. It's—sigh—Biodiversity.



I play two Baby Swarms, bloating my Field line to unseen lengths:




(I assume summoned tokens count for the "cards played this turn can't attack" rule.)

My non-babies attack! Both Crippled Geniuses and the original Honeycomb smack the first Oak Tree for 16. Two copied Honeycombs smack the other for 10. The other two take out the remaining Acorns.

I end my turn and do the usual.

Field: Crippled Genius (6, 14/16), Crippled Genius (6, 14/16), Honeycomb (4, 18/18), Honeycomb (5, 13/13), Honeycomb (5, 13/13), Honeycomb (5, 13/13), Honeycomb (5, 13/13), Baby (5, 16/16) * 8
Hand: 12
Hearts: 20
Stars: 13

An 8 star card with a very specific combo was weaker than your card spam >_>

[Elephant Parade]

Actually, cancel reviewing Mirror Maid and review Divine Lambsurrection instead.



C'mon. Discarding cards is an upside for Lambs, and the effect lets you replay Divine Lambitual (the strongest draw and graveyard setup effect in the game) and Divine Lambiture (extremely powerful lategame stargen/blocker spam) for 1 HP/1 discard. This is on top of treating your graveyard as a hand, which is a huge benefit to begin with (especially if you've played Divine Lambitual!), and letting you pay with hearts instead of stars, which is advantageous in basically any situation where the cost won't kill you. I propose changing the cost from hearts+cards to hearts+stars and adding an "except Divine Lambitual" limitation.

An 8 star card with a very specific combo was weaker than your card spam >_>

My card spam wouldn't have been nearly as strong without Verdant Growth and Biodiversity, which are about to be rightfully nerfed. Without them, it'd have taken a lot longer to get going. You can play Omnipotent Goddess Waifu on your first or second turn to search UMW, use UMW the next turn, and deliver the beatdown the turn after.

But you're right that my card spam was too strong; Clutch of Eggs is an absurd card and I hope someone reviews it. To me, that's one of the pleasures of this game: showing off overpowered cards and broken combos, then commiserating about the need to fix them.

[notquitethere]

An 8 star card with a very specific combo was weaker than your card spam >_>

I'm putting an end to Biodiversity's reign now. As an 8 star, Unlimited Maid Works will always be very powerful, but putting some limitation to it might actually be good for the power of future Maid cards in general: as it currently stands, I have a big disincentive of making anything more powerful, as UMW effectively reduces the cost of almost all 9+ Maids. (As you saw with that 100 star card you tried to make.)

But you're right that my card spam was too strong; Clutch of Eggs is an absurd card and I hope someone reviews it. To me, that's one of the pleasures of this game: showing off overpowered cards and broken combos, then commiserating about the need to fix them.

Supernerd was quite fond of that make-a-1/1-clone effect, as he included a lot of these effects in his Evil Genius deck too. It's something which is a lot more powerful in the games we've currently been running, but wouldn't have lasted 5 seconds in the CYOGTCG Wars games which had loads of cheap board wipe effects to deal with that sort of thing.


Speaking of which... a heads up for everyone: I will be releasing the CYOGTCG Wars game to the repository when everyone has played their first bouts. At that point, they'll be legal to play in the second half of the tournament. When the Forum Runner event ends, we can play with the cards made for me and Tric as well.

[TricMagic]

To the herd of elephants, the Divine Lambsurection should have never had an exception for spells in the first place. As something that revives creatures it's a good deal more fair, as higher cost cards cost more cards and hearts to play, which those 0 star cards don't. I have no clue why NQT didn't restrict it to cards with hearts in the first place, but was my gain at the time.

Also, changing it the hearts+stars goes against the lamb playstyle in the first place. And is a net benefit to splashing into any deck, not a debuff.

[Elephant Parade]

To the herd of elephants, the Divine Lambsurection should have never had an exception for spells in the first place. As something that revives creatures it's a good deal more fair, as higher cost cards cost more cards and hearts to play, which those 0 star cards don't. I have no clue why NQT didn't restrict it to cards with hearts in the first place, but was my gain at the time.

That would make it less overpowered, but it remains the case that:

• Playing a card from your graveyard is an extremely powerful effect. In the mid- and lategame, your graveyard is probably going to have more cards from, and different cards than, your hand. Also, it lets you keep playing the same card over and over again.
• A heart costs you less than a star, especially in the early game, and a discard can be beneficial. Rather than playing a card from your graveyard at an increased cost, the current Divine Lambsurrection plays a card from your graveyard at a reduced cost.

Also, changing it the hearts+stars goes against the lamb playstyle in the first place. And is a net benefit to splashing into any deck, not a debuff.

If "the lamb playstyle" is combining discard effects with play-on-discard cards to play large numbers of cards in one turn, then any play-on-discard cards need to be balanced for that—they're essentially quickplay, or even quickplay+. I think it's fair to say that Divine Lambiture is a bit busted relative to other quickplay cards. Comparing it to the most similar extant cards, Cosmic Isopod and Tentacle Kitty, the first Lambiture you play is slightly weaker (since you don't get the star until the card is destroyed), but every subsequent Lambiture is much stronger.

[TricMagic]

Kinda the point of Lambiture in the first place. Compared to if they each generated 2 stars.

1=1/2
2=3/4
3=6/6
4=9/8
5=13/10
6=18/12

See above for star generation. And my point is to make it so it can only play Heart cards instead of Spells with no hearts. Which removes the ability to replay spells and cuts off such combos at the root. And most of the deck's power was the result of Bio and Verdant along with Nanite Cloud searching out the key card to start it off.

Hearts costing less than stars only applies early game anyway, and if it's restricted to creature cards, that also restricts it's power. Since to get a 4 star you'd need to discard 5 cards and pay 5 out of 20 hearts.

[Stirk]

An 8 star card with a very specific combo was weaker than your card spam >_>

I'm putting an end to Biodiversity's reign now. As an 8 star, Unlimited Maid Works will always be very powerful, but putting some limitation to it might actually be good for the power of future Maid cards in general: as it currently stands, I have a big disincentive of making anything more powerful, as UMW effectively reduces the cost of almost all 9+ Maids. (As you saw with that 100 star card you tried to make.)

But you're right that my card spam was too strong; Clutch of Eggs is an absurd card and I hope someone reviews it. To me, that's one of the pleasures of this game: showing off overpowered cards and broken combos, then commiserating about the need to fix them.

Supernerd was quite fond of that make-a-1/1-clone effect, as he included a lot of these effects in his Evil Genius deck too. It's something which is a lot more powerful in the games we've currently been running, but wouldn't have lasted 5 seconds in the CYOGTCG Wars games which had loads of cheap board wipe effects to deal with that sort of thing.


Speaking of which... a heads up for everyone: I will be releasing the CYOGTCG Wars game to the repository when everyone has played their first bouts. At that point, they'll be legal to play in the second half of the tournament. When the Forum Runner event ends, we can play with the cards made for me and Tric as well.

Are you honestly suggesting you would have let the 100 star card slide if I didn’t have UMW? Because I have a free revision and am perfectly happy to call your bluff after the nerf.

[Elephant Parade]

Kinda the point of Lambiture in the first place. Compared to if they each generated 2 stars.

1=1/2
2=3/4
3=6/6
4=9/8
5=13/10
6=18/12

The better comparison would be to if they each generated 1 star, which is what Tentacle Kitty and Cosmic Isopod do. Yes, TK and CI give you the stars up front, but that doesn't make up for the extreme gap in power:

I'm not saying it shouldn't have scaling; stargen cards with intrinsic scaling are an interesting niche. I just think it scales too quickly for a quickplay-equivalent card.

e: and it's not just stars and blockers, it's stars and blockers and graveyard fodder—see Lamb Gravedigger

Hearts costing less than stars only applies early game anyway, and if it's restricted to creature cards, that also restricts it's power. Since to get a 4 star you'd need to discard 5 cards and pay 5 out of 20 hearts.

I think it applies throughout the game. Having fewer hearts doesn't matter unless the difference lets your opponent kill you, which usually doesn't happen until endgame, if at all: a deck that wins via board advantage, like the one I just played, doesn't really care about the opponent's hearts. And while it's true that Resurrection is pretty bad at summoning high-cost creatures, your most expensive revealed creature costs 3*.