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Author Topic: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics  (Read 30917 times)

Great Order

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #525 on: July 04, 2024, 07:07:08 pm »

SNP losing seats is hardly a surprise. Sturgeon was the one who was able to keep the party and voters happy, and then she turned out to be fucking around with the funding alongside her husband. That was bad enough, Humza was then chosen as leader and he's... Not competent as best as I can tell.
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hector13

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #526 on: July 04, 2024, 09:50:55 pm »

Douglas Alexander is back in Scotland, he famously lost to Mhairi Black in 2015.

Corbyn ran as an independent and beat Labour for his Islington seat.

Good news, George Galloway loses the seat he won in February.

Bad news, Farage is elected at the 8th time of asking.

SNP are apparently projected to get 6 seats now, pretty bad juju, but I think after 150 seats counted the Tories are yet to break 20, so that’s amusing.

Edit: Labour get over the 326 mark and will form the next government, no surprise there.

Edit 2: THE MOGG IS GONE! Jacob Rees-Mogg loses his seat to Labour. What an utter tosspot.

Edit 3: Liz Truss also lost her seat so she can go be bananas somewhere else.

Douglas Ross lost his seat, so he is relegated to the B-team and is only 2-job Ross.

6 seats left to count, the most the Tories can get is 125 seats, which is 31 seats fewer than they got in 1906.

It took almost 600 seats to report before the Tories broke triple digits for seats.

I would like to consider this the death knell of their party, but the alternative right-wing party is UKIP Brexit Racist candidates aplentyeform, so maybe they can Duke it out for a few years, that would be cool.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 02:35:12 am by hector13 »
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the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Il Palazzo

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #527 on: July 05, 2024, 04:39:21 am »

at the 8th time of asking
I can't parse this. Help a foreigner out. What does it mean?
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Starver

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #528 on: July 05, 2024, 04:53:13 am »

I was channel-surfing at the beginning of the night. Didn't really need a comment. I was going to do a full check of ins-and-outs (and perhaps add 'spoiler' 3rd-places to ('allied') 2nd-places to see how many 1st-places they conceivably could have turned out to displace, without that choice) but enough amateur sophologists have probably already jumped on that bandwagon.

While I basically never going to say who I vote for[1], I am quite comfortable that my actual chosen candidate (personally liked) came respectiably high, without it spoiling the chance of my second-choice (a decent individual of the party I expected and was happy to win). The party (and person - couldn't even use apostrophes correctly!) I wouldn't have wanted was second, but that was expected, and not a significant enough second.

(A decent candidate for a decent party came further down the list, which is a pity though they were never in contention, though my (non-)contribution couldn't have changed that. And after that it was always going to be also-rans.)

((Did you know, apparently there was no constituency with less than five candidates. Apparently a record amount. Thirteen against Rishi. Count Binface beat the OMRLP (mixed emoitions on that), and several others independent/wannabe, in a field of thirteen!))

[1] Nor where. - Perhaps I'm being a little too specific here and you can narrow down some possibilities, but I seeing similar patterns in other places I have links to, so my deliberate vagueness can perhaps survive this. And bear in mind that on yesterday's travels I passed half a dozen polling stations not in my constituency, before I finally made my own weary way to vote, so even I don't tend to consider myself narrowed down to any particular tens-of-thousands-of-people area, practically. ;)

at the 8th time of asking
I can't parse this. Help a foreigner out. What does it mean?
He's tried to be elected seven times before (different places, 'different' parties), and it would have been hilarious if he had not finally broken his duck on the 7ath attempt. But, even though his party was shown up for being... what it is generally accepted to be..., he did handle it 'better' and quicker than Rishi did his own party-members'/candidates' failings. And, of course, some people will have voted for him because of the angle that he represents, regardless.



I probably have missed it now (whilst driving, there was the run-up, if it hasn't happened yet then it'll be in five minutes...) but there'll be the stepping-down speech by Sunak and he's gone, barring the removal vans. Additional note to furriners (especially 'Merkins) that we pretty much don't expect a "July 6th" thing. For better of for worse, by Monday (Tuesday at the latest) we'll probably have as much of a next government as we need until the actual ceremonial elements get going. ;)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 04:58:07 am by Starver »
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Great Order

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Starver

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #530 on: July 05, 2024, 07:35:57 am »

https://x.com/timfarron/status/1809102027756052708?t=FgmRxKFLPH7T0gSTsQwxBA

Tim Farron's got a sense of humour.
((Urgh, I hate what links to xwitter do to my machine, these days...))

The question is whether Agent May is sent out into the field (of corn) again...
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hector13

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #531 on: July 05, 2024, 12:48:46 pm »

One thing I’m curious about is what you all think about this.

Was Labour’s landslide because they offered something better than the Tories, or because the Tories have had scandal after scandal after scandal, starting with Partygate?

I’ve never been convinced that Starmer has been a breath of fresh air. He’s u-turned on some pretty big policies (specifically views on gender and also the environment) and during the debates he never really landed any big blows against Sunak or the Tories.

I think it basically came down to Labour politicians not really have any major gaffes (positions on Gaza aside) and the Tories just being unable to not be Tories.



I’m other news, Nigel has been urged to join the Tories, and it was mooted he run for the Tory leadership.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Frumple

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #532 on: July 05, 2024, 01:41:44 pm »

As... far as I've seen from chatter, it's because their opposition screwed itself. Labour performance was, apparently, kinda' shit. Barely better than 2019, worse than 2017, it basically didn't budge from their last performance that, iirc, was considered disastrous. If tory and reform voters hadn't split like they did, labour would have been pummeled (again).

Labour's landslide was because the tories cocked it up repeatedly for like a decade straight and they're operating in an FPTP environment, not because of any virtue of their own.
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anewaname

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #533 on: July 05, 2024, 02:34:05 pm »

It is good that the system of voting/elections actually worked to get new people into power... So, will the new guys be able to avoid fighting amongst themselves over who gets to do what? Will they be able to clean out the political hacks the old party entrenched in the government? Will they be able to stop Tory and Reform from working together to stop them? Will they be able to introduce their electoral reform system? I'm betting that they will fail with all those goals, because they will "fight like warriors, no like soldiers".
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Grim Portent

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #534 on: July 05, 2024, 02:55:09 pm »

It is good that the system of voting/elections actually worked to get new people into power... So, will the new guys be able to avoid fighting amongst themselves over who gets to do what? Will they be able to clean out the political hacks the old party entrenched in the government? Will they be able to stop Tory and Reform from working together to stop them? Will they be able to introduce their electoral reform system? I'm betting that they will fail with all those goals, because they will "fight like warriors, no like soldiers".

IIRC current Labour has stated they have no plans to introduce electoral reform, and did so quite some time ago.

Of the big three, Lib Dems are the only one consistently pitching electoral reform, though I think all the minor ones also support it.

But we swing between Labour and Conservatives, who both benefit disproportionately from FPTP, so change is unlikely.
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anewaname

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #535 on: July 05, 2024, 06:49:32 pm »

I included that bit about the "electoral reform system" because of this wikipedia (which I found after checking on talking points some news commentor made). I don't know if that group exists solely to keep a voter subgroup voting for the Labour Party (the same way the main US politics groups try to get Libertarians or Sanders-backers to vote their candidate).
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How did I manage to successfully apply the lessons of The Screwtape Letters to my perceptions of big grocery stores?
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Great Order

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #536 on: July 05, 2024, 08:03:54 pm »

If tory and reform voters hadn't split like they did, labour would have been pummeled (again).
If the polls are anything to go by, the Tories were in for a pounding regardless. Boris fucked them with the whole No. 10 partying, then Truss shattered them completely. Rishi's incompetence was merely the final nail in the coffin.

Refuk didn't have much effect on the polls because they only started to get more votes once Fucky McFuckFace Nigel Farage took control. Before that they were hanging around 5%
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Grim Portent

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #537 on: July 05, 2024, 08:37:52 pm »

I included that bit about the "electoral reform system" because of this wikipedia (which I found after checking on talking points some news commentor made). I don't know if that group exists solely to keep a voter subgroup voting for the Labour Party (the same way the main US politics groups try to get Libertarians or Sanders-backers to vote their candidate).

It's a subfaction of Labour members who support Labour as the most viable candidate for electoral reform.

Keir Starmer, the current Labour leader, has stated opposition to their ideal of Proportional Representation. Generally speaking all Labour leaders have for a long time.
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Great Order

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #538 on: July 06, 2024, 04:25:06 am »

Didn't Tony Blair claim to support it then drop it pretty much immediately after getting power?
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Starver

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Re: United Kingdom Bunker Thread - Politics & Economics
« Reply #539 on: July 06, 2024, 05:28:29 am »

Practically, any party who can contend, in the current context, has no real will to overturn the current context. It's simple political evolution, that there's no "phyletic gradualism" to this particular aspect of the electoral phenotype and the ability to shove over a sudden change ("punctuated equilibrium") is severely limited.

The closest it came to changing was with the LDs pushing for a change through their unanticipated coalition (analagous to a horizontal transfer of gene, or maybe better to suggest a temporary endosymbiotic analogue), but it arguably didn't take because, like many such random gene/function-hops that might occur when the usual machinery of cells gets a bit too friendly an external input, it just wasn't conveying the right level of advantage (and in the cell-line that last into the next generation of cells) to sustain itself.

(Outside of metaphore, it was arguably the wrong kind of non-FPTP, to make headway. By accident or design (some would say machination), the conceptual advantage attempted to be adopted wasn't even one that the majority of those who wanted change liked the idea of changing to. Under that time's national psychology, there was both small-c conservatism towards the idea of "sticking it to the current traditional system" and a too stoic "if we do change, I dislike this change we'd be changing to" by those who might otherwise have been the table-flippers who might have prefered to deal with the current bad hand by forcing the cards to be dealt again. Whoops, metaphore crept in again! Anyway, the problem was that the chosen alternative was too flawed to gain traction. Some say that better-qualified alternative-alternatives were ruled out just for this reason.)

Not that we're without alternative systems in the UK. Look to the devolved governments (or at least some parts of them, I'd have to check the less familiar ones). Though the system "designed never to have an overall majority" (Scotland) then got one anyway for quite a while (perhaps speaking volumes about the relative popularity of the party/perverseness of the electorate), and the one "designed for stable bilateral government" (Norn Ir'n) reveals itself easily stymied by one of the supposed partners throwing the toys out lf the shared pram at the slightest provocation (on top of other issues, just more general to the areas particular issues or politicians in general).


The 'way forward' is difficult, if you're thinking of juggling the House Of Commons methodology, because it's hard to establish significant, stable and beneficial changes to the established 'reproductive system'. You might luck on, two of those options, straight off the bat, but find it either not significant, not stable or not beneficial.


Better luck with the House Of Lords, maybe. I'm actually more towards the "it aint (too) broke, don't 'fix' it" camp there, myself, as I definitely don't want to have a carbon-copy "second elected house" (even offset, or given a slightly different term length, two 'populism-windblown' Houses removes what I'd term 'safeguards', even if others consider them to be 'blockers and spoilers'}, but I can see problems with the current setup. More problems, though, with the politically-upshoved life peers than with the hereditary ones (who are currently being whittled out, for the sake of 'democracy', the same democracy that still tries to stuff partisan statepeople onto the red benches).

Most of my own feelings about this aside, however, it might be easier/better to ease in some PR-representation into the HoL. Have a kind of 'party list' system whereby a number of issues are presented to the public. "How do you currently rank the issues of Education, Housing, Defence, Agriculture, Transport, [etc]" is the 'question', and the public answer determines how many 'new peers' are appointed from a queue of experts in said fields (if party-politicians must be involved, the list may be populated by them, but all parties get (proportional?) nomination-rights and the positions in the queues are interleved in some 'fair', and/or coin-toss, way). Thus we generate an influx of 'People's Peers', sufficiently different from 'Political Peers', which I would keep, but rate-limit.

As I would keep a Hereditary element. I feel that the less we rely upon ambitious individuals who would do anything to get into power, and the more we have who grow 'into service' more organically, the better. If there's any better solution against sheer megalomania flooding (or at least seeping) into both houses, it'd be to choose random newborns as proto-Lordships, let them grow up and attain a given age and then (for those not disqualified by something like criminality, emigration, having a particularly prominent occupation (which it is better for them to continue) or becoming an actual politician (...you can make your own joke about why these are excluded) shanghai them into being a Neo-Hereditary Lord. "Accident of birth"? That's an 'accident of birth'. Of course, they lack the "growing up, knowing that they'll likely be a Lord" nurturing which I think probably helps moderate the sheer ambition that we can't escape those who luck themselves into power through all the other means of achieving any sort of parliamentary status. What we want, though, are a mix of not-too-unwilling (but not ever actually eager candidates who aren't worried about comparative blips of public opinion and aren't likely to bet big upon holding onto power but know that they'll likely be having to juggle the results of their past choices a decade or several down the line, not "politic fast, retire young, go get jobs on some company boards off the back of knowing (and heing known by) the right people.


Anyway, you could conceivably tweak all that into the Lords, if done right, far easier than rebuilding the engine of the very same car as you're currently driving. (Not 'easily', but 'easier'.) Of course, 'future history' may prove me wrong, but it's more likely to change system through some actual (social?) revolution, i.e. waiting until the car spins off the road and taking the opportunity to tweak the motor before whoever next gets the wheel revs it all up again.
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