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Author Topic: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on  (Read 33309 times)

Karlito

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #495 on: January 22, 2023, 12:01:37 pm »

I'm pretty sure the bunker buildings are the mechanism to protect against asset damage.
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E. Albright

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #496 on: January 22, 2023, 12:56:48 pm »

That's their explicit purpose, yes, but it would make sense for WAS to also protect against them. I agree they almost certainly don't though. I'd be very surprised if they did.

When bunker assets were released, I'm almost certain there was some mention of them increasing entrenchment (which they don't) and some non-bunker buildings giving bunkerization points (never specified which, I always presumed high command and maybe barracks, but it appears neither do). There's due to be a manual update sometime soon, I think when the DLC comes out, and it sounded like bunkers will get fully documented there.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #497 on: January 22, 2023, 12:59:09 pm »

There's an autokill on nukes?

Also, I don't think I understand what makes for a hit vs no hit. I thought it was just comparing hit points to the attack values.
I don't know anything. :P
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E. Albright

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #498 on: January 22, 2023, 04:13:19 pm »

Scoring hits is where you get attack value vs. defense value - the actual mechanic is picking a random number between 0 and each modified value, and then comparing them. The part that's poorly explained is what happens next, and the manual doesn't really go into details: something determines if it's a Retreat Hit, Kill Hit, or Pinned Hit. And that's the part where auto-kill overrides normal mechanics.

[All that doesn't apply to shields; they automatically force misses but lose HP every time until they're depleted, at which point they're immediately killed. They also don't replenish from one combat to the next, or receive defensive modifiers from commanders, etc. This is why personal shields are such garbage, though they're better than they used to be. IIRC, they now lose fewer HP from hits that don't exceed their defensive value - might even be none. Basically, what's good about them is that it's hard - I want to say impossible? - to get an immediate kill on them, but given time they will die. Again, the mechanics are funky, and I had to do multiple attacks and pick through the details combat report very closely to figure out what was going on. How Vic precisely changed that is lost to the mists of time since the changelog doesn't go back that far, but again, I vaguely recall it being that doing less than the shield value reduces/eliminates the shield loss.]

I searched in vain to find a list in the manual with the kill percentages were for atomics, and I finally realized that Pymous had listed old vs. new in a design document for their retuning mod. The manual never actually mentions them, unlike SAM kill stats. The numbers are 30% for 1MT, 50% for 10MT, 70% for 50MT, 90% for 100MT. Micronuke and atomic cannons are also both 50%. SAMs are 50/60/80 depending on size.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2023, 04:27:39 pm by E. Albright »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #499 on: January 22, 2023, 04:21:55 pm »

I'm not sure I'm happy with the autokill mechanics existing. I mean, I kinda get it - make the end game feel like end game, and not a WWI slugfest. But then again, I think I'd like a slugfest more*.

*although in all honesty this is likely approx. 900% fuelled by my recent experiences, as I'm doing the slugfesting and the autokilling is being done to me
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E. Albright

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #500 on: January 22, 2023, 04:37:29 pm »

I get that, and it seems like that's a common complaint. OTOH, given how nukes are handled mechanically they're pretty toothless w/o it when faced with high-end units - the only mechanics for damage short of death for one-off strikes are loss of readiness, morale, or entrenchment, and all of those are temporary. Nukes are pretty miserably expensive and radioactive are the most limited resource in the game, so there's a certain incentive to make them effective, especially since as you say the alternative is long, drawn-out trench warfare. There's a number of no nukes or toned-down nukes mods out there for this reason, but I have very mixed feelings about them.

All that said, I'm really not looking forward to when you hit me with micro-nukes. I'm not sure I'll be able to stand firm like I have been. Stalemate is going to end soon, one way or the other.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #501 on: January 22, 2023, 04:51:38 pm »

I really don't see why you're hinging this on my micro-nukes. I almost didn't want to research them. It's still equally squishy infantry, after all, and their attack values ain't that great (other than the autokill I haven't known about until just now).

But anyway, you said hits are determined by attack value vs defence value? I thought (other than hitpoints) all four numbers were attack values, against different types of units, and for different circumstances - i.e. used to determine hits, not to avoid them.
So you're saying e.g. for infantry vs infantry, high soft defence can nullify medium soft attack, before hitpoints even come into play? And the defender uses soft attack against attackers soft defence too?
And not that defender uses soft defence for attack rolls?

Like, having a great gun can stop me from being hit?
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E. Albright

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #502 on: January 22, 2023, 05:06:38 pm »

But anyway, you said hits are determined by attack value vs defence value? I thought (other than hitpoints) all four numbers were attack values, against different types of units, and for different circumstances - i.e. used to determine hits, not to avoid them.
So you're saying e.g. for infantry vs infantry, high soft defence can nullify medium soft attack, before hitpoints even come into play? And the defender uses soft attack against attackers soft defence too?
And not that defender uses soft defence for attack rolls?

Sorry, no, that was horribly unclear. The terminology is inconsistent in various places and I didn't have the common sense to pick a clear and consistent set of terms. Defense value in this context is HP modified by whatever modifiers apply. Attack score is only used on defense when the defender counterattacks. So it's (0 to (soft offensive attack + mods)) vs. (0 to (soft HP + mods)) to score a hit. Then if it's a hit black magic decides what kind of hit it was, and if not and the defender has had fewer counterattacks than its attack number this round, it counterattacks with (0 to (soft defensive attack + mods)) vs. (0 to (soft HP + mods)), etc.

It's also worth noting that attackers also suffer a... 75% & 50%, I think? attack penalty on rounds 1 and 2. Tanks suffer half that. If you're in Recon in Force posture, you ignore it.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #503 on: January 22, 2023, 05:28:22 pm »

Ah, alright. For a while there I thought I had been unwittingly playing a completely different game all along.
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E. Albright

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #504 on: January 23, 2023, 05:46:31 pm »

I'm at least 50% sure I forgot something major, but I'm not even remotely sure what it'd be, so off to Karlito it goes.

I really don't see why you're hinging this on my micro-nukes. I almost didn't want to research them. It's still equally squishy infantry, after all, and their attack values ain't that great (other than the autokill I haven't known about until just now).

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Il Palazzo

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #505 on: January 23, 2023, 05:58:53 pm »

As far as I can tell, this pro-micronuke campaign is a ruse to make me spend more of my industrial capacity on expensive equipment that will then be vaporized by actual nukes. I am not falling for this. (or am I?)
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E. Albright

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #506 on: January 23, 2023, 06:44:34 pm »

If you're straining as much on machine production capacity as you suggested a few days back, you're not gonna like that part of upgrading to micronukes. It's why mine are still extra-squishy, and why I never could deploy enough to make a difference last game (even though they honestly really did seem to help when I could field them). A BDE of micronukes in battledress will cost you 54 machines right off the top...
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #507 on: January 23, 2023, 06:50:20 pm »

Yeah, I'll likely treat them more aspirationally for a while.
How much do the actual nukes cost, though? I've never built them either.
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E. Albright

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #508 on: January 24, 2023, 05:36:56 am »

My 10MT launchers are 464IP, 10HT, 428Me, 14Ma, 45RM, 446Oil, 20Ra. 1MT were 362IP, 228Me, 14Ma, 36RM, 362Oil, 10Ra. I don't have an advanced SP game handy to check ICBM costs, but they're A LOT more.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Shadow Empire PBEM round 2: game on
« Reply #509 on: January 24, 2023, 05:47:32 am »

What. You don't even need high tech for the 1 Mt ones?
In any case, that's seriously cheap, in basic resources. Comparable to a battalion of rockets(!) and half the price of missiles. For what is many, many times higher effectiveness.
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