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[Persus13]

I feel like we pulled a great example of why you shouldn't kill your teammate, even if you eventually plan on using a redirect. It was very amusing watching people try to figure out what the heck happened D2 though. Also 4maskwolf had our number.

I think if I'd realized the action order meant my stuff wouldn't fire before the kill went off I'd have advocated the more cautious route.

[notquitethere]

Yeah one of the things you'll see in the scumchat is me talking about action priority, as it turns out Webadict uses a quite idiosyncratic implementation of Natural Action Resolution which majorly benefits blocks at the expense of everything else.

In short: in most games, you can redirect a blocker if the blocker isn't blocking the redirector, but in Web's games, blocking always happens first regardless.

This way of doing priority makes things simpler for the GM, but it does place all powers more firmly into a rigid hierarchy of usefulness.

[Lenglon]

Web: now that I know NQT's redirect permitted invalid targets, why didn't I learn Toony's role?

[hector13]

Scum felt underpowered probably because we killed our most powerful member. I possibly should have used the “regular” mafiakill to mask Persus’ role in the event of failure, but hindsight and all that.

But yeah, town could have figured out the game and won N2, so surviving beyond that was a bonus.

[Jim Groovester]

That was some damn good shooting on Vector's part for N1, holy cow.

I feel good reading Persus13, notquitethere, and hector13 and even Maximum Spin to some extent somewhat correctly but I didn't put the hunches to good use.

[ToonyMan]

But yeah, town could have figured out the game and won N2, so surviving beyond that was a bonus.

Well yeah, Egan doesn't res Tric, we lynch NQT instead. I then shoot you N2 for game.

[Vector]

One of the reasons I felt Egan was a better pick than Hector was because I couldn't believe Vector would choose two Evil like a chad for N1.

:V

[4maskwolf]

Web: now that I know NQT's redirect permitted invalid targets, why didn't I learn Toony's role?

Toony was immune to non-kill monster actions.

The funny thing about the whole “4mask had our number” is that it was a case of wrong premises leading to the right conclusion. I never even considered that the wolf-team would self-kill to try and throw off the town lol.

[Lenglon]

I never even considered that the wolf-team would self-kill to try and throw off the town lol.

Neither did I.

[hector13]

… and we would have done it if it weren’t for you pesky kids!

[webadict]

Web: now that I know NQT's redirect permitted invalid targets, why didn't I learn Toony's role?

Because Toony's role was this:

Role Name: Retired Monster Hunter

{PT} (Auto) Hunter Instincts:  You’ve seen worse. Non-Kill Monster Abilities have no effect on you.
Tags:  Trigger

{P10} (Night) Track [target]:  You hunt the target, Tracking them and Learning any Players they might target.
Tags:  Learn, Track

{P7} (1-Shot, Night) Two Days After Retirement [target]:  You’re too old for this.  You kill the target.  If the target is a Monster, their Auto Abilities do nothing.  This can only be used on Night 2 or later.
Tags:  Kill

Namely, Non-Kill Monster Abilities have no effect on him, including this Role's:

(Info) Ghoul
{P9} (1-Shot, Night) Consume [dead target]:  You consume the target's body, gaining knowledge from the corpse.  You Learn the target's full Role and gain an Action the target had.
Tags:  Monster, Death, Learn

Yeah one of the things you'll see in the scumchat is me talking about action priority, as it turns out Webadict uses a quite idiosyncratic implementation of Natural Action Resolution which majorly benefits blocks at the expense of everything else.

In short: in most games, you can redirect a blocker if the blocker isn't blocking the redirector, but in Web's games, blocking always happens first regardless.

This way of doing priority makes things simpler for the GM, but it does place all powers more firmly into a rigid hierarchy of usefulness.

I mark every Ability with how fast or slow it is, and the rule of thumb is that the priorities roughly match up with the NAR, but I don't have to put any Ability at any particular Priority.  For the most part, I've kept them similar Priorities, but that doesn't mean they'll always be.  The downside is that an Action cannot be affected by Actions that are slower or equal Priority than itself.  Either the Redirect or the Roleblock will go off and override or ignore the other, with no means of interaction between the two unless its Action-specified.  The upside is that it's much simpler system for me to implement fast turn resolutions, and the question of what works in what order is that anything with a lower Priority doesn't affect an Action.  It's mechanically easier to understand, though intuitively less so.  Changing it means I spend a lot more time resolving Actions that I already spend hours each game doing.

So, while that is a valid criticism of the system, it's not something that I would be willing to change at this point.

[Persus13]

Web: now that I know NQT's redirect permitted invalid targets, why didn't I learn Toony's role?

Toony was immune to non-kill monster actions.

The funny thing about the whole “4mask had our number” is that it was a case of wrong premises leading to the right conclusion. I never even considered that the wolf-team would self-kill to try and throw off the town lol.

To be fair, the plan wasn't to throw off the town with a self-kill, it was to redirect the kill onto Jack. So Max blocking NQT N1 is what killed me.

[4maskwolf]

Also, I want to share the monstrosity I sent in for my N1 action. Kuddos to those who understand the reference.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lenglon waited. The torches above her blinked and sparked out of the air. There were monsters in the town. She didn't see them, but had expected them, now for years. Her warnings to Eldar Joson were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
Lenglon was a Divine Child for fourteen years. When she was young he watched the ceremonies and she said to dad "I want to be on the cult, daddy."
Dad said "NO! YOU WILL BE KILL BY MONSTERS!"
There was a time when she believed him. Then as she got oldered she stopped. But now in the town of the Divine Children she knew there were monsters.
"This is Joson," the telepathy crackered. "You must fight the monsters!"
So Lenglon gotted her campasite bow and knocked down the wall.
"SHE GOING TO KILL US," said the monster!
"I will shoot at her," said the dark magus and he fired the evil magic. Lenglon shottered at him and tried to blew him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to kill.
"No! I must kill the monsters," she shouted!
The telepathic link said "No, Lenglon. You are the monsters."
And then, Lenglon was a Medusa.

Imprint Lenglon Medusa

I'm not sorry.

[Knightwing64]

John Stalvern waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were demons in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years. His warnings to Cernel Joson were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
John was a space marine for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the spaceships and he said to dad "I want to be on the ships daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY DEMONS"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in the space station base of the UAC he knew there were demons.
"This is Joson" the radio crackered. "You must fight the demons!"
So John gotted his palsma rifle and blew up the wall.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the demons
"I will shoot at him" said the cyberdemon and he fired the rocket missiles. John plasmaed at him and tried to blew him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were trapped and not able to kill.
"No! I must kill the demons" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the demons"
And then John was a zombie.

[webadict]

Looking at the game with 100% vision of the moderator, I think the scumteam had a few things going for them, and a lot more going against them.  The first problem they had to deal with has to deal with the type of player each of them are.  For the most part, hector13, notquitethere, and Persus13 are very similar in how they play the game as scum, though this is probably easier to see with NQT and hector than Persus (since Persus spent a lot of it dead and Persus actually did a lot to obfuscate the team openly by going after hector, which actually gave him a lot of shield, so good job Persus13!)  They tend to hide in the shadows of the game.  I think this playstyle works best with a lot less light, and I think that actually means that if they lie more, it makes things better.

hector13 lied about his Action, but he had a really good out when the plan failed on Night 1, which is that he could've claimed Redirecting/Reflecting/Bussing the Kill.  This would help obfuscate the information and no one could counterclaim this information because, well, no one else did it.  It ALSO gives reason for why hector13 cannot be Killed at Night, makes him look Good, and I think that gets him to at least 5p.  I've always been a proponent of lying about your Action as scum, and letting other people do the heavy lifting on how to solve that.  I think his morale was a little low, plus he was feeling sick, so I don't fault him for not doing more.  I think it would've required doubling down on a plan that already failed, but... Well, sometimes, taking risks is how you gotta win!  I think giving hector13 an extra Action actually solves a lot of problems with his Role, which is that it allows him to steal the Neutral Roles (And 4mask's Extra Roles), AND doesn't punish him for not being able to use all the different Mafiakills.

notquitethere had a bit of a tougher problem, which is that he was perpetually blocked.  There's nothing that can be done about that problem on its own, since he got targeted by Max really hard, which totally sucks.  I'm not sure how notquitethere can make that one work, but I think a lot of NQT's problems were mostly Role-bound, and some changes to his Role were the only way to fix those.  If they're done, I think NQT doesn't get hit hard (since NQT's Action is no longer copied do to not having any Uses left in it.)  Those changes probably make him look fairly Good.

Persus13 was setting himself up to be powerwolf, and I think if he lives N1, he HAS to turn on hector13, since it's suspicious that neither of them didn't die.  How do you explain that one?  But, his Role was super powerful and gives him cover no matter what happens.  Losing his Role Night 1 was a huge hit, and dropped their chances to win to like... 10-15% max.  When Vector hit Persus13 and hector13, the win rate drops to like 25-30% (from ~40%, which seems high, but it's low for scumteams), but the plan failing is really bad.  It means Persus13 and hector13 probably have to stage a huge thunderdome and by doing so, they might both look Good to everyone.

Overall, I'd say that the scumteam got a combination of unlucky, balance issues, and not lying enough.  The Town played fairly well, and got really lucky on Ability usage.  It's a tough game to learn anything about due to circumstances, but I think the little bit that can be learned here is lie, probably about being a Miller, and no one will do anything to you.  Always lie about being a Miller.  Heck, lie about being a Miller when you're Town, I'm gonna lie about being a Miller every game.  It's a foolproof strategy.

I think the things I can learn from this is that synergies are fun and more of those, plz.