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[Maximum Spin]

Don't overestimate me. it's PAIN in the morning in my timezone. I hadn't actually solved anything and was bluffing. I saw enough to be fairly sure a solution exists, but I'm not awake enough to actually solve the game right now.

Oh wow. Lol. Fallacy set you up for that, then. I gotta give you credit for that bluff.

[notquitethere]

OK Jim, Knightwing64, ToonyMan and TricMagic— Max has soft-claimed being mafia:

Max: I am currently assuming you have the crown and your partner is avoiding the current discussion so you won't have all your eggs in one basket.

By the way, Lenglon: I know it looks like there might be a certain uncontrolled variable in the plan, but there actually isn't. It's sewn up. I assume you will understand what this means.

I know you might be tempted to give into the scheme wherein each night one person becomes a mafia-ally. But what's to stop the mafia just launching the last town player at the end of the game? You should play to win, and most of you are town so let's win by getting rid of Max and then his partner.

[ToonyMan]

Wait what the game started already

Yes, and we've decided to all win, so you should vote no lynch so that we can save endangered hats.

LaaaaaAAme.

@FoU:
Playing against your wincon because you expect it to change is laaaaaame. I want to play mafia.

I'm not claiming my hat either.

OK Jim, Knightwing64, ToonyMan and TricMagic— Max has soft-claimed being mafia:

Max: I am currently assuming you have the crown and your partner is avoiding the current discussion so you won't have all your eggs in one basket.

By the way, Lenglon: I know it looks like there might be a certain uncontrolled variable in the plan, but there actually isn't. It's sewn up. I assume you will understand what this means.

I know you might be tempted to give into the scheme wherein each night one person becomes a mafia-ally. But what's to stop the mafia just launching the last town player at the end of the game? You should play to win, and most of you are town so let's win by getting rid of Max and then his partner.

Yeah, I agree.

I think NQT is probably town. In addition, I get to vote Max! It's a win-win!

[ToonyMan]

Oooo, I wanna win

Good morning

[Maximum Spin]

Well, ToonyMan, we could do the thing where everyone claims his hat instead.

[notquitethere]

So you know who to NK and steal from? No thanks.

[Maximum Spin]

So you know who to NK and steal from? No thanks.

I mean, if you fullclaim, town wins d3 and I'll even explain how.
What difference would the claim even make to what happens in the night? All hats are equal, even if some are more equal than others.

[notquitethere]

What difference would the claim even make to what happens in the night? All hats are equal, even if some are more equal than others.

Mafia tend to want to kill power roles. Is there something different about this setup that changes that?

I mean, if you fullclaim, town wins d3 and I'll even explain how.

Explain if you like, but I'm sceptical about plans put forward by self-confessed scum players.

[Maximum Spin]

Mafia tend to want to kill power roles. Is there something different about this setup that changes that?

Yes. Most importantly: one of the three power roles is mafia, and that role doesn't work.

Suppose all town claim truthfully. My partner can lie, which would be stupid; that narrows it down to the two candidates which claim the same hat. Whichever power hat isn't claimed is the one mafia have. If it's not the vig, you just lynch one and vig the other. If it is, you'll have to lynch each separately. In either case, you would of course lynch me first. Mafia get off at most one kill, if my partner graverobs me tonight and survives tomorrow's lynch.
Otherwise, my partner tells the truth. All hats are claimed. You know one of the three claimed power roles is scum. Which one? In this case, you leave me alive today and tell the vig claim to vig me while the doctor claim doctors the vig claim (you can have the cop claim cop the doctor, if you want). If the vig is my partner, I survive and presumably kill one person; you lynch me tomorrow, then lynch my partner the next day. If the doctor or cop is my partner, I get killed, I kill someone else, you have to pick between the doctor and cop claims to lynch tomorrow, and the vig, if alive, kills the other (if necessary). Of course if I kill the vig, you know the doctor was my partner, so assume I'm smart enough not to do that. Mafia again get off at most one kill.
In all cases you will mislynch at most one player.

This is all, of course, really obvious. If I had chosen to fakeclaim, it would have been slightly harder since you would have two "possibility pools" to pick from, but still easy enough that I decided my plan was better.

[FallacyofUrist]

Surprising nobody, broken setup is broken. I’m still for everyone (cooperative) wins. Unfortunately this is an imperfect world and I fully expect NQT to vigkill Maximum Spin tonight out of spite, and unfortunately the doctor hat doesn’t block the vigilante kill.

I’ll vote no elim once we have a plan of night action.

[Lenglon]

Max's summary of how town can find his scumbuddy isn't 100% accurate in the case where his partner lies, but this doesn't seem important at this time.

FoU: current night action plan is you mug Max, Max mugs you, everyone else turtles, assuming everyone cooperates.

Spoiler: quoting where Max explained this (click to show/hide)

Right, but we can hammer no execution.

With five people, right. Five people haven't committed to the plan yet. If we assume everyone who has is town, then there are five with the mafia, but if one is mafia, there are only four, and if both mafia have already agreed, only three. Since you, me, and Jim have all said we'd go for it.

If enough people commit to no lynch (or possibly to lynching nqt in the current gamestate - there's no way to force him to become a mally if he chooses not to mug or graverob), I can't see why the mafia would TURN DOWN winning. It would be pretty crazy. If the hammer threshold of cooperators is reached, there's no risk.

The plan after the point at which the crown owner claims would be really straightforward, btw: the crown owner and one other player should mug each other while everyone else turtles. Anyone caught mugging improperly would then be lynched.

I'm not claiming my hat yet.

My intention is to hammer no lynch when possible, and at the same time declare my mugging target. I intend to award it to Fallacy for being the first to agree, but you can discuss amongst yourselves if you disagree. I'll follow consensus.

By the way, Lenglon: I know it looks like there might be a certain uncontrolled variable in the plan, but there actually isn't. It's sewn up. I assume you will understand what this means.

[Lenglon]

Oh wow, I didn't see that Egan had added a third generic hat to the OP, never mind. yeah, completely busted setup. There's no claimspace at all assuming town massclaims, not even in the generics.

[Lenglon]

Okay, time to put the real puzzle of this game on the table. We don't need to find the mafia here. We also don't need to find the town here. We need to find the Third Parties.

What third parties? Why, the people that have decided to go for the title of Hat Tyrant of course.

Who are these people, how would we find them? These people are going to want a long game WITHOUT the organization of an everyone-wins play. True Mafia's only way to win in a setup this broken is convincing the town to cooperate with them for an everyone-wins play. True Town are people pushing for a Day 1 massclaim + lynching the mafia immediately. Third parties need the game to be long, but chaotic. they can't have people making organized massclaims and mass-turtling. These are the people that are going to try to oppose the Everyone Wins organized play but refuse to claim their own hats or organize night actions.

So in short, if you're playing in the forum's "normal" fairly cagey way, then you're likely attempting to become Hat Tyrant.

These people are going to be attempting to identify each other, because the organized players will all be turtling and unable to be mugged. Their best bet is to mug each other. They need to disguise their intent so that the other people going for Hat Tyrant don't mug them, and they are going to want actual organized players to be lynched / shot so they can be graverobbed instead of having the organized player hats locked away behind perpetual turtling.

So yes, we still have a mafia game going, it's just not a traditional one.

[Lenglon]

Oh, and to make things more fun, in the case of organized everyone-wins gameplay, the person with the Gibbus wants to not claim and oppose massclaims. This is because the Hat Tyrant players can get the Gibbus from them even if the Gibbus player turtles.

This means that players pushing for Everyone Wins need to be NOT pushing for a massclaim, to protect the Gibbus, but players pushing for Town Wins still DO need to push for a massclaim, because that's how they find Max's scumbuddy.

[Lenglon]

And finally, to resolve this problem:

Max's scumbuddy should claim to being the other mafia so that the True Town team loses this incentive to push for a massclaim, making the only players that want a massclaim the players that want to know who has the Gibbus. Mafia's only reasonable chance here is convincing the town to cooperate. You can't realistically win in the traditional way when the setup has LITERALLY ZERO CLAIMSPACE. So stop trying. Unless you want to go for Hat Tyrant yourself of course. In which case Max should out you to the town and you should be lynched, not for being mafia, but for being faction Hat Tyrant.