Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: By what authority was King Charles I charged?  (Read 584 times)

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
By what authority was King Charles I charged?
« on: September 11, 2022, 12:59:29 am »

In 1649, King Charles I of England was charged after leading a bloody civil war against his people.  But on what authority was he charged?

Explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPDpj59kkgk

His question resounds into the present day- by what authority is he charged?

I, of course, think he was just another human, with no divine right to "the crown".  But even I see that this was a... bit of a mess.  And did we learn anything from this?
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: By what authority was King Charles I charged?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2022, 03:57:51 am »

Near as I can tell from a quick check, by the authority of "having lost a military conflict". If god was the source of his authority, well, the parliament kicked god's ass and got to do whatever the hell they wanted afterwards, heh.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Great Order

  • Bay Watcher
  • [SCREAMS_INTERNALLY]
    • View Profile
Re: By what authority was King Charles I charged?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2022, 09:56:39 am »

Bog standard authority: Enough people thought he should be charged (or didn't disagree enough to do anything about it) so he was charged.

That's just the way it works. Bit like how if everyone in the US decided Biden wasn't president, he wouldn't be because nobody would listen to him.

If you're speaking legally, then yeah, guy lost. When all else fails, there's always the good ol' force-of-arms method.
Logged
Quote
I may have wasted all those years
They're not worth their time in tears
I may have spent too long in darkness
In the warmth of my fears

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: By what authority was King Charles I charged?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2022, 01:28:12 pm »

On authority of the dude who was so puritanical people called him God's executioner and in an Irish pub my m8 saw the entire pub spit in unison on mention of his name. When he ordered the signing of the King's execution the man who was supposed to sign it shook too much to do so, so Cromwell signed it himself. Considering how Cromwell was the only person to hold military and political command in the parliament's history and to wear armour inside the houses of parliament with no one able to stop him, it's a case of "why quote laws when we hold swords." Cromwell is a funny one because he was fairly royalist in sentiment and only pushed for the execution of Charles when Charles refused to compromise with him and continued to struggle for power. In Cromwell's mind, the only way forward then was to execute the King, on the basis that it was just to kill that who caused the bloodshed, and that Charles would never be content to be a restrained monarch. Though the divine right of Kings was still in effect, Cromwell was of a more severe religious bent that no one was above God, that scripture should guide faith, that Christmas was too pagan and you should love your enemies - and hate God's enemies. The execution was unpopular domestically and internationally, without legal basis, probably unnecessary and arguably of an innocent man. And yet it happened, and thereafter no monarch tried to assert absolute authority since. So there is a silver lining?

lemon10

  • Bay Watcher
  • Citrus Master
    • View Profile
Re: By what authority was King Charles I charged?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2022, 06:27:20 pm »

Though the divine right of Kings was still in effect, Cromwell was of a more severe religious bent that no one was above God, that scripture should guide faith, that Christmas was too pagan and you should love your enemies - and hate God's enemies. The execution was unpopular domestically and internationally, without legal basis, probably unnecessary and arguably of an innocent man. And yet it happened, and thereafter no monarch tried to assert absolute authority since. So there is a silver lining?
Nah, fuck that noise.
Its like killing the Joker's minions then letting the Joker go afterwards because killing is bad. The person who did it deserves the blame, and if you intentionally get your country invaded so you can seize power you deserve a hell of a lot of blame.

The only reason he might have gotten off is because by the laws put in place when his ancestor killed a ton of people to make themselves king he was a special snowflake above the law.


Obviously Cromwell is a complete asshole as well, and arguably an even worse one (*cough* likely genocide of catholics *cough), but he was right in that you shouldn't be able to walk away from killing hundreds of thousands of people just because of who your daddy was.
Logged
And with a mighty leap, the evil Conservative flies through the window, escaping our heroes once again!
Because the solution to not being able to control your dakka is MOAR DAKKA.

That's it. We've finally crossed over and become the nation of Da Orky Boyz.

TamerVirus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Who cares
    • View Profile
Re: By what authority was King Charles I charged?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2022, 06:42:57 pm »

Vae victis
Woe to the defeated
Logged
What can mysteriously disappear can mysteriously reappear
*Shakes fist at TamerVirus*

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: By what authority was King Charles I charged?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2022, 02:46:06 pm »

Nah, fuck that noise.
Its like killing the Joker's minions then letting the Joker go afterwards because killing is bad. The person who did it deserves the blame, and if you intentionally get your country invaded so you can seize power you deserve a hell of a lot of blame.

The only reason he might have gotten off is because by the laws put in place when his ancestor killed a ton of people to make themselves king he was a special snowflake above the law.

Obviously Cromwell is a complete asshole as well, and arguably an even worse one (*cough* likely genocide of catholics *cough), but he was right in that you shouldn't be able to walk away from killing hundreds of thousands of people just because of who your daddy was.
It is too anachronistic to judge the figures of the 17th century by the moral standards set by 21st century comic book characters. I recommend reading more about it - King Charles and Oliver Cromwell are both much more interesting than a simple tyrant or a catholic slaying arsehole. Charles' hold was strongest in England and weakest in Ireland, yet it was Ireland that supported him and England that rose against him. Cromwell is part of Irish myth as a genocider against catholics without acknowledging the ulster massacres, or the effect of seeing scores of his dead comrades piled up by men he had set free - or even the King himself, being one such man he had supported, defeated, set free - only to have to fight him again. Charles and Cromwell were both shrewd statesmen, Cromwell was a decent albeit zealous commander, and their actions display a great deal of consideration for what is just and what will restore peace to the three kingdoms. Compare it to the 20th century balkan wars where you have royalists, antifascists, fascists, communists, republicans, nationalist separatists and nationalist irredentists of Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia e.t.c. within and Bulgaria, Albania, Greece & Italy without, but you assign all blame to Tito who is like Thanos and is a bad guy who needs avengers to slap him. It's not very accommodating of all the human details lost in catastrophe, when countryman turns sword against countryman

I don't even need to think of any other reason why you wouldn't want to execute a leader who is already under your custody. For starters, put yourself in their shoes. You are part of the army faction that is supposed to represent parliament, but the parliament faction may turn against you too, and you don't know who the Royal Navy will side with. All four regions of the British isles have just recovered from a civil war and have already been plunged into yet another state of civil war, which you lack the power to end by force. Your hope that you could resolve things with a peaceful compromise have been dashed by the revelation that the King made secret pacts with your enemies, and some of your enemies broke their oaths to keep the peace. Making a second compromise with the King is now dangerous, as they have already proven they are still capable of causing civil strife in defeat. Killing the King is dangerous, as it ends all possibility of compromise and provokes the likelihood of a third wave of civil warfare against royalist-aligned factions - which is what happened. And for some shrewd parliamentarians, it would be no doubt deeply concerning that Cromwell would execute the King with authority he doesn't have, and in doing so seize powers that cannot be peacefully revoked except by an enlightened dictator. Many revolutions against tyrants ended up with Emperors who were far worse and far more powerful than the tyrants who were overthrown, which is why the manner in which governments are overthrown or replaced is so critical. People like George Washington or Lykourgos who can hold absolute authority in military and civil government and just give it all up are rare; the Napoleons, Stalins and Cromwells who end up being far more powerful and ruthless than the monarchs preceding them tend to be the rule. Violence breeds violence, and in a long & vicious civil war, it's usually the most decisive and ruthless who end up surviving. Were it not for Cromwell's incompetent son losing the confidence of the army, who knows where the commonwealth's dictatorship would have ended

EuchreJack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lord of Norderland - Lv 20 SKOOKUM ROC
    • View Profile
Re: By what authority was King Charles I charged?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2022, 05:13:07 pm »

Hm, let me boot up Europa Universalis IV...

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: By what authority was King Charles I charged?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2022, 08:19:49 am »

Vae victis
Woe to the defeated

Woe to the victoried?


Edit: aside from that; what I actually came here to say: what do you mean "by which authority"?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 08:21:45 am by scriver »
Logged
Love, scriver~