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[Failbird105]

I can agree with making another wincon, but I'd also agree that making that wincon a two-card combination is pretty sketchy. Like, why not a vehicle that costs the sacrifice of any card with attack to play, with the flavour being that the sacrificed creature is now the pilot?

It doesn't need to be a specific 2 card combo, we can make multiple potential pilots or vehicles. They're intended to be interchangeable and provide different benefits to make a wide variety of possible combos and ways to play them.

If it just sacrifices a card then, well, for one its liable to be weaker thanks to being much easier to use, and for two it limits the Cards potential by meaning it always does the same thing.

I also never said the new wincon would have to be a vehicle, or even that it should.

[NUKE9.13]

If it isn't a wincon, it's even worse. As a wincon, the play-two-cards-to-get-one thing is okay-ish. As a regular card, it's not. The most expensive thing in this game is "plays per turn". Cards that let you play more cards, cards that produce multiple tokens, are like two-for-one in the other direction.

Hmm. You know, maybe we should test the idea. It's conceivably possible that I'm being too pessimistic. It's also possible that I'm right, and the poor action economy will be crippling. If you make some mockup pilot/vehicle cards- one of each, I think, since I don't think doing more than that in the coming phase will pass-, I can put together a test deck from what we've seen from Team 1, and we can figure out how well they do.

E: So I was looking at the cards we've seen from Team 1, putting them all in a list from which to build a deck... and I realised that their cards are... not all that impressive?

Spoiler: The list (click to show/hide)

I may have missed one somewhere.
E2: No, wait. That's sixteen cards, the same number we have. That's all their cards.
...what is going on over there?

[Failbird105]

If it isn't a wincon, it's even worse. As a wincon, the play-two-cards-to-get-one thing is okay-ish. As a regular card, it's not. The most expensive thing in this game is "plays per turn". Cards that let you play more cards, cards that produce multiple tokens, are like two-for-one in the other direction.

Hmm. You know, maybe we should test the idea. It's conceivably possible that I'm being too pessimistic. It's also possible that I'm right, and the poor action economy will be crippling. If you make some mockup pilot/vehicle cards- one of each, I think, since I don't think doing more than that in the coming phase will pass-, I can put together a test deck from what we've seen from Team 1, and we can figure out how well they do.

The problem with that is that 'Equip' is a term that hasn't really been introduced yet, meaning that there are no established mechanics for it and so we have no idea in the slightest how well the mockups would actually correlate to the game proper. I'd definitely be all up for giving the cards a test run, but the problem is that this goes beyond "we don't know how these cards would be balanced" and straight into "we can't be sure how this mechanic will even function".

I'd still be willing to do it, just know that it'll be even more unofficial than the mockup you already did.

E: So I was looking at the cards we've seen from Team 1, putting them all in a list from which to build a deck... and I realized that their cards are... not all that impressive?

Spoiler: The list (click to show/hide)

I may have missed one somewhere.

Honestly, yeah, and if we assume that none of these are Prize Cards, that's kinda all that they have. They kinda just beat us with two perfect counters to our entire playstyle and really good luck in the first round.

[notquitethere]

Their three core basic creatures are all useful. Wooly can defeat a card just by putting into play, remarkably useful. BFG, with help of other cards, is a solid counter to our high star cards. Mystery Ghost is a 5 stat card so often has higher health than we can take down in one turn.

Where we're slightly more co-ordinated, we've got more fancy play combo stuff. Overall our deck is better I'd say, but they have some decent basics.

[Failbird105]

Their three core basic creatures are all useful. Wooly can defeat a card just by putting into play, remarkably useful. BFG, with help of other cards, is a solid counter to our high star cards. Mystery Ghost is a 5 stat card so often has higher health than we can take down in one turn.

Where we're slightly more co-ordinated, we've got more fancy play combo stuff. Overall our deck is better I'd say, but they have some decent basics.

Yeah, the Demon should help with that, though frankly I feel like 'constant health drain' is rather extreme of a weakness. Like, losing a single Heart from yourself would easily be worth at least one point of stats. Frankly I feel like the Demon Footsoldiers will end up being stronger than you'd think.

As for Vehicles, what do you guys think a 1-star card with a weakness that its attack is halved if a certain card type isn't in play would be able to get in terms of combined stat total?

[notquitethere]

As for Vehicles, what do you guys think a 1-star card with a weakness that its attack is halved if a certain card type isn't in play would be able to get in terms of combined stat total?

Hmm, so 1 star = 10 points to spend. Weakness like that I'd give 2 per star rank, so 14, or 7/7? Make it 6/8 so meteor can't wipe it in one round (and 3a still takes out most cards).

Funny that we don't have any 1 star creatures. An obvious hole in the collection. They've only got Naglfar (and Summer Star Maiden I guess).

[Failbird105]

As for Vehicles, what do you guys think a 1-star card with a weakness that its attack is halved if a certain card type isn't in play would be able to get in terms of combined stat total?

Hmm, so 1 star = 10 points to spend. Weakness like that I'd give 2 per star rank, so 14, or 7/7? Make it 6/8 so meteor can't wipe it in one round (and 3a still takes out most cards).

Funny that we don't have any 1 star creatures. An obvious hole in the collection. They've only got Naglfar (and Summer Star Maiden I guess).

Actually, 1 star is 8/9 points. you gain a maximum of 4 stat points per star rank, with a bonus one point just for being a unit card at all. Taking the more conservative option for safety would leave us with, say, a 4/4, then if you really add 2 per rank it could be a 6/6. So still at risk from Meteor Shower, but like, we made a fucking 2 Star card that literally can't damage anything but an absolute monster of a tank and it only got 17 points, 7 being Hearts.

Honestly I think we're unlikely to ever make a lone card that will survive a max-rolled Meteor for less than 3 stars.

Bring region effects and card synergies into consideration though, and that's where things change. If we're trying to make a card that can survive the entire world coming down on its head alone we're putting far too many eggs into a singular basket. Hell the enemy made a fucking 'literally does nothing and then kills itself' card that costs 3 stars(though a whole stars worth of points was probably lost due to the whole "if this is the only one on the field it's free" thing) and they still only got 15 points of stats.

[notquitethere]

Taking the more conservative option for safety would leave us with, say, a 4/4, then if you really add 2 per rank it could be a 6/6. So still at risk from Meteor Shower, but like, we made a fucking 2 Star card that literally can't damage anything but an absolute monster of a tank and it only got 17 points, 7 being Hearts.

Honestly I think we're unlikely to ever make a lone card that will survive a max-rolled Meteor for less than 3 stars.

You'd just make it 4/8 then. So it can survive 1 full hit. And we already have a two 2 star creatures that can survive a max rolled meteor...

[Failbird105]

You'd just make it 4/8 then. So it can survive 1 full hit. And we already have a two 2 star creatures that can survive a max rolled meteor...

Technically, yes, the Mountain can survive a max rolled meteor while only being 2 stars...
provided you sacrifice 3 other cards to it who had a combined 8 total Hearts. Doable, sure, but it proves my own point more than yours.

[Failbird105]

But yeah Nuke, I'd be up for doing a test game, I just want you to know that it likely won't be as informative as the last one.

And also that like, the battle phase is pretty much over now and I'm going to spend most of tomorrow at work, and then even more of the day after, so we won't have much time to test either. Still, the mockup cards have been made.

[Shadowclaw777]

Card games are hilarious to me to design for because well there is a very fine needle before things can go over the line and yet are interesting to find where that line is. I feel like we treat this game very casually, that’s why the opposing team doesn’t have a coherent strategy and why we have many weird cards (Mainly Card Caster and Isekai, these cards are too complicated for me too understand )

I knew as the team we needed card draw, that’s why I went a bit anti-theme, but I already had an idea of cards that take advantage of damage to self for your own benefit. Backfire could've probably just been 2 damage me thinks, with I think a 0-Star Draw 2 being a standard card, but that doesn’t mean you can take advantage of it. Also rapid card draw for all those card-swarming and combo-needing pieces we need.

In terms of strategy I mean summoning a card that doesn't have an immediate effect on the battlefield except being a big pile of stats even if 0-star isn’t really that good. Token spam will be countered by Storm Cells, and a big pile of stats (Mountain) can also be countered by Big Friendly Ghost+Solo Star Power. The opposing team’s big weakness is lack of card draw, you can currently just out-control them and have a bigger hand which means more options to do big plays if you play on the reactive (especially with Unintentional). This also means they are never guaranteed their answers if they don’t have the card draw/search to do it. I just hope that we all don’t design high-star pile of stat cards that are bad to single-target removal. The opposing team has also a thing of not having many good high-star cards

Spoiler: Card Ideas: (click to show/hide)

Painomancer Waifu: 0-Star 1/2 The first time you lose hearts to yourself during your turn, roll a d4. 1: You gain hearts equal to the damage done instead, 2: Gain a Star, 3: Draw a Card 4: Gain +1/+1.
Compared to Refinery it could even have better stats due to it being situational, or maybe it could trigger from multiple instances of self-damage in a singular turn. Maybe it could just be blocking the heart loss instead, or even just it has a guaranteed consistent effect to be more reliable

Aggressive Drake: 2 Star, 6/7, This card can attack when played, but cannot attack opposing players on the turn it was played (A more versatile 2-Star card then PGW that can be used for Stats for Mountain, as well as also being a reactive card, PGW can really only be used for burning the enemy's health or stats for Mountain)

Anglerfish Dragon: 3-4 Star: 6-8/10 Create a 1/4 Dragon’s Lure Token with “At the end of your turn, force a chosen enemy minion to attack an Anglerfish Dragon. Whenever this minion deals damage, the controlling player gains hearts equal to the damage done (Life-Gain, An alternate effect but still immediate when playing) (Yes, I found artwork of this)

I feel like I’m going to still make Dragon Egg,

[NUKE9.13]

I just hope that we all don’t design high-star pile of stat cards that are bad to single-target removal.

We definitely shouldn't, no. I think having at least one cheap card that is swole AF would benefit us- like, if they need to use their boardwipe on a single zero-star card, that protects cards we play afterwards. And if they don't have a boardwipe, we get to kill two or three of their cheap cards. And if they don't have blockers, we get to deal big hurt for cheap. "Dies to removal" is somewhat of a meme for a reason- it isn't actually a fatal weakness. But if we all design cards that are nothing but stats, we're not going to do well.

This is a reason why I want to discuss what we want to design- so that we can each fill a hole in our roster, and not overlap too much.

E: Also, a card idea I had that is unfortunately very weak to Gateless, so probably not worth it:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

*Card Name: Masquerade Host
*Card Picture:
*Background Color: That Pastel Purple That BFG Is
Attack: 0*
Hearts: 5
Stars: 1
Card Effect: All cards may be played face-down.
  Flipping a card face-up costs one extra star.
  This card gains 2 Attack per face-down card in play.
Flavor Text:
Metadata: Allows all players to play any card face down, but makes it harder to flip them. Weakens flip-heavy strats. Gateless wrecks it, unfortunately.
Reference:

[notquitethere]

I like the design space there. And Gateless is powerful, but it's also extremely low tempo. They play that and they're not playing a creature.

--

So I've lost my match. Would have probably been okay, but Solo Star + BFG totally wrecks the Fog + PFG combo. I was only able to get one good hit off. Also I shouldn't have bothered bringing the Night Sweep with me, as I was never able to keep any of my creatures on the board for more than one round. And because he was returning PFG to my hand, the graveyard didn't have any good cards for Mountain of Bodies.

Bombard was useful, I should have had more of them to deal with Artillery.

[NUKE9.13]

I like the design space there. And Gateless is powerful, but it's also extremely low tempo. They play that and they're not playing a creature.

Actually, that's true. It's like removal, but not as bad, since it still leaves you with a vanilla creature. While we should be careful about making super-expensive cards that rely almost entirely on card effects to do anything, we shouldn't let them force us into only using vanilla or drawback cards.

[Supernerd]

Design Phase starts now!
Note that any card designs you made prior to this post will be disregarded for this design phase, so make sure you post the one design you want!