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[darkhog]

With all the UI changes in DF, I feel that the wiki will quickly become outdated as nothing will match with what players will actually see on screen. And since the wiki is such a huge part of the DF experience, I think the people who write guides there should get early DF Premium keys, or at least access to the builds in order to update the wiki in time for the release.

[PlumpHelmetMan]

I don't think this would be feasible TBH. Literally anyone can create and edit a DF Wiki page, so the criteria for who does and doesn't get an early Premium key would be arbitrary at best. On top of that, it would presumably require every wiki writer to volunteer their contact and financial info to Toady, and would probably get the Adams brothers accused of showing favouritism towards individual fans.

[darkhog]

I don't think this would be feasible TBH. Literally anyone can create and edit a DF Wiki page, so the criteria for who does and doesn't get an early Premium key would be arbitrary at best. On top of that, it would presumably require every wiki writer to volunteer their contact and financial info to Toady, and would probably get the Adams brothers accused of showing favouritism towards individual fans.

Just most active users and the creators of most useful pages like Quickstart guide would be enough. I also don't think that just anybody who happened to edit wiki at any time should just get a key or link to a build. As for favoritism claims, I don't think it would be any different than giving the modders early access so they can update their tilesets/mods for the premium version.

[A_Curious_Cat]

The problem that I see with this is that anyone can register to edit the wiki.  This means that (if your suggestion was implemented) anyone who wanted early access would just need to register there (they wouldn’t even need to actually edit the wiki, just register to do so).  In the end, this would be the same as allowing everybody early access (at which point it can’t really be called “early access” anymore).

[Starver]

There's precedence (in a negative sense) insofar as I think there has never been any special advanced-access given to anybody for any of the prior major or minor updates.

The community tended to work out anything new (including new things that are broken) about as quick as you like, I don't see it being any more tardy this next time round. I don't know how much trouble individual modders (and utility-makers) had upon a major-version/tweak rollout (would depend upon the bits the modding depended or now failed to depend upon, in each case) but if authors of them needed to deal with sudden mismatching details then some of them were straight on the case and resolved it (Dwarf Therapist is a case on point for something that needs to keep updated in a quite significant manner for every deep-down adjustment of the vital data structures) and some maybe weren't.

And the Premium version isn't going to be functionally different from the simultaneous non-Premium version (it has been stressed numerous times), and I also recall it being said that a fair-use of the actual main Premium content (i.e. the graphics, ideally alongside the identical view in 'de-Premiumed' format) would be entirely acceptable once it gets beyond not just explaining anything new about how bridge-levering happens and gets into showing what the result looks like.


While the problems about "who are the Wiki writers" from above would be major, I think it'll never be an issue because it probably never will have to be. At worse, the initial cropped screenshots may be a mix of unPremium (from those only researching the regular-version) and the other lot, until effort is made to at least try to provide comparative matches by some mechanism or other that I seem to recall has already been discussed by those more involved with the wiki namespace/templating maintainance.

[Salmeuk]

i imagine a new wave of wiki editors will perform many of the descriptive edits alongside 'tenured' editors

[darkhog]

There's precedence (in a negative sense) insofar as I think there has never been any special advanced-access given to anybody for any of the prior major or minor updates.

The community tended to work out anything new (including new things that are broken) about as quick as you like, I don't see it being any more tardy this next time round. I don't know how much trouble individual modders (and utility-makers) had upon a major-version/tweak rollout (would depend upon the bits the modding depended or now failed to depend upon, in each case) but if authors of them needed to deal with sudden mismatching details then some of them were straight on the case and resolved it (Dwarf Therapist is a case on point for something that needs to keep updated in a quite significant manner for every deep-down adjustment of the vital data structures) and some maybe weren't.

And the Premium version isn't going to be functionally different from the simultaneous non-Premium version (it has been stressed numerous times), and I also recall it being said that a fair-use of the actual main Premium content (i.e. the graphics, ideally alongside the identical view in 'de-Premiumed' format) would be entirely acceptable once it gets beyond not just explaining anything new about how bridge-levering happens and gets into showing what the result looks like.

Yes, but due to the multitude of UI changes, the game will just PLAY different, meaning that existing tutorials, while working up to and including 47.05, will not be 1:1 applicable to the premium version due to the different UI alone.

The problem that I see with this is that anyone can register to edit the wiki.  This means that (if your suggestion was implemented) anyone who wanted early access would just need to register there (they wouldn’t even need to actually edit the wiki, just register to do so).  In the end, this would be the same as allowing everybody early access (at which point it can’t really be called “early access” anymore).

i imagine a new wave of wiki editors will perform many of the descriptive edits alongside 'tenured' editors

Again, only exisitnig editors who made large contributions, such as whoever wrote Quickstart in the first place, should get an access. Obviously precautions need to be made to avoid anyone gaming the system.

[Starver]

Yes, but due to the multitude of UI changes, the game will just PLAY different, meaning that existing tutorials, while working up to and including 47.05, will not be 1:1 applicable to the premium version due to the different UI alone.

Tutorials have been non-1:1 before (even ignoring the new stuff that emerged on the scene, or occasionally what no longer exists in gameplay). It's only a matter of scale and the visual reorganisation of what functionality is the same.

Yes, there will be changes. And dedicated early-adopters (existing community or new discoverers) probably won't bother with the non-existent blow-by-blow guides as they bumble in, en-mass. And then interested guide-writers (old and new) will update, and probably cross-pollinate their experiences in a way that the pre-release access scheme could never really allow. I have faith in that process, and it seems to me that it doesn't introduce more problems than it actually solves (like last minute tweaks invalidating efforts).

And non-Early-Access people will always have to wait, however useful their contributions ultimately are. Either way, it'll be a scramble, and exciting... in different ways. Perhaps I'm just feeling far more egalitarian, not wishing to penalise some because they marginally miss the cut in accreditation, when the past shows it's not a necessary flourish to the release-process.


(I have absolutely no experience of Quickstart, I must say. I also have never really used LNP, but have enjoyed the delights of Dwarf Therapist and occasionally dabbled with DFHack, among the non-Guide 3rd-party contributions that could benefit but I'm sure can adapt. Albeit that LNP's relationship with the Premium version content may be too complicated (if not logistically, then certainly licence-wise), depending upon decisions made beyond their control even if they were invited to an EA evaluation.)

[rico6822]

Since major change in what dwarves in tiles look like of most recent classic version nobody put that on wiki to this moment after several months. That's despite dwarves being a strictly major feature.

[Lidku]

UI changes alone isn't a good enough justification to give early-access, along with the fact everyone else has cited in this thread; almost anyone can become a wiki editor/user. Just picking who "contributed the most" to the wiki a weak reason for candidacy, it screams of favoritism just on quantity of work.

Just wait until this Premium DF comes out, then work from there.

[darkhog]

And modders getting early access isn't favoritism, because...?

[A_Curious_Cat]

And modders getting early access isn't favoritism, because...?

Wait… are modder’s getting early access?

[Salmeuk]

not sure this rationale works:

Yes, but due to the multitude of UI changes, the game will just PLAY different, meaning that existing tutorials, while working up to and including 47.05, will not be 1:1 applicable to the premium version due to the different UI alone.

this is not as dramatic a problem as one might think. how long does it take you to write up a few paragraphs, explaining in what order to click buttons? the difference we're talking about here is a day 1 quickstart tutorial vs. a day 3 quickstart tutorial. In exchange for releasing access to a easily transferable game file to literally random people. I just don't see you convincing Tarn of the need..

you know how on twitch you should never make someone a mod if they ask to be made a mod? I kind of think that applies here lol

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

how is favoritism in this scenario a bad thing. what world do you live in where DF mod makers are vying for supreme control in some strange battle of creative egos? cause I want to move there