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[Egan_BW]

We've already seen his half conviction. Half of following your self truth is in fact half willingly lying. May as well punish him with the curse already, it'll at least bar him from this work. If he wants to redeem himself, let him comfort the sick without our help.

[Glass]

Fair enough!
EDIT: After discussing stuff with Egan over Discord, I think we’re agreed on D.

[Maximum Spin]

Does his religion view magic as evil? Because if so, he seems to be doing fine. We know for a fact that magic can turn people into undead monstrosities who profane and enslave the bodies of others, so he has a pretty good case.

Under the facts of this universe as we know them, training young magic-users to become priests instead of witches and warlocks or lich kings seems like a pretty reasonable choice. This witch alone could kill — thousands? Millions? Just because she isn't doing so now, doesn't mean she won't change her mind, and based on her evident haughtiness, it's more likely than not. Besides, she's a potential rival, and leaving potential rivals alive is stupid.

From an outside perspective, like the perspective of any of these people just minding their own business trying to live their lives, a magic-user who won't cooperate with the church is effectively a WMD just sitting out in a cornfield waiting for someone to trip over it. Just look at our example: we had the opportunity to make a promise only to raise the consenting, and we chose not to take it; anyone who feels a reasonable and justified attachment to the condition of his body after death should consider us a monster. This is not a situation that can be solved with tolerance and education.

The friar feels guilty; it's clear that he doesn't enjoy the suffering he's causing, which suggests that he sees no better way to protect people. If we are going to position ourselves as the divine judge of damned souls, let's not adopt a vapid harm-reduction policy for doing it.

E: Talk to him, with an aura of truth or whatever, about a change in procedures. Because we want our people to feel safe against other magic users, we'll support him in training those he finds to live in accordance with whatever the local religion says. Because we want our people to feel safe against the predations of priests, he'll have to learn to operate without separating children from their families, adopting a church camp model, and the truly recalcitrant cases will be sent to us for repurposing rather than burned.
ETA: Also, kill the witch.

[Glass]

There’s no mention of him feeling guilty about what he does, only that he’s lying to himself in some capacity. There’s also no indication of what his religion actually believes, what the culture around people who have magic are, or what the witch has done other than have strong magic, be captured by the friar, and resist said capture. Also, considering we haven’t even raised any undead yet, and I haven’t seen anywhere anything regarding only raising the willing - and for that matter, we specifically didn’t take the thing that would compel those who benefit from our services to give us their bodies upon death, and we’re confirmed capable of just conjuring bones as necessary - I see no reason to claim that we should righteously be considered a monster.

Sorry, Spin, but it seems to me that your reasoning here is built off of faulty, or at least unconfirmed, assumptions.

[Egan_BW]

If this man were representative of the church here, which he isn't, then that church would be more dangerous by far than some random untrained renegade mages.

[Maximum Spin]

There’s no mention of him feeling guilty about what he does, only that he’s lying to himself in some capacity. There’s also no indication of what his religion actually believes, what the culture around people who have magic are, or what the witch has done other than have strong magic, be captured by the friar, and resist said capture. Also, considering we haven’t even raised any undead yet, and I haven’t seen anywhere anything regarding only raising the willing - and for that matter, we specifically didn’t take the thing that would compel those who benefit from our services to give us their bodies upon death, and we’re confirmed capable of just conjuring bones as necessary - I see no reason to claim that we should righteously be considered a monster.

Sorry, Spin, but it seems to me that your reasoning here is built off of faulty, or at least unconfirmed, assumptions.

You sense a deep guilt in him, one that he has long buried.

generally the temple takes a dim view on necromancy.

“No meddling with our souls now, and our bodies stay in the ground where they belong,” she warns.

I haven’t seen anywhere anything regarding only raising the willing

You do seem to be right about that, I had somehow been under the impression that the original option B stipulated that we'd only take bodies from those who offered. That may have just been something I was thinking about suggesting at the time.

Regardless, I posit that a lich king is intrinsically a monster; we haven't raised any undead yet, but the people must now live in reasonable fear that we might. Oh, but we said we wouldn't. I'm sure that reassures them all completely. This is my same point with the witch: it doesn't matter what she's done. What matters is that she's a ticking time bomb that can't possibly be controlled except by more powerful magic. She could be the nicest person on the planet, although it certainly doesn't look like it so far, and still kill untold numbers of people by accident. It is reasonable for people who don't have that kind of power and just want to live their lives without being caught in wizard fights to want her removed.

If this man were representative of the church here, which he isn't, then that church would be more dangerous by far than some random untrained renegade mages.

That's stupid. Beliefs that you don't like are not more dangerous than magic.
ETA: Oh, by the way, yes, I see that what he's currently doing doesn't fully conform with church doctrine, which is why I specifically said he has to start.

[Egan_BW]

...They use magic, spin. He's recruiting mages. And rounding up random ass people.

Besides, organizations are quite clearly more dangerous than powerful individuals, as evidenced by the fact that this scheme works at all.

I don't feel like arguing with your inhumane blue-orange morality today, so I won't.

[Maximum Spin]

...They use magic, spin. He's recruiting mages. And rounding up random ass people.

He's rounding up people with magic, and recruiting them to be part of his organisation that rounds up people with magic and trains them to be [...]. The text very clearly states that all the prisoners have some modest amount of magic.

Besides, organizations are quite clearly more dangerous than powerful individuals, as evidenced by the fact that this scheme works at all.

Which is more dangerous: a witch gets into a snit and blows up your whole village, or an organization of magic-users manage to subdue and burn the witch before she does the other thing? Certainly, the group is more powerful than the witch, as a unit, but it is also easier to control as long as no individual member is particularly powerful; and because it is more powerful, it allows the powerful individuals to be controlled when nothing else could. Yes, we will have to keep it in check. Everything has to be kept in check in some way or another.

I don't feel like arguing with your inhumane blue-orange morality today, so I won't.

I have a different definition of "humane" than you. I think your utopianism is insane and awful. This is just one of those things we will have to agree to disagree about.
Let me put it like this. Imagine that, instead of witchcraft, these people are building meth labs. I have no issue with people using or making meth if they want to have meth. But if someone builds a meth lab in the house next door, I will absolutely gather up the neighbors to run him out of town, or up a tree if necessary. "But my meth lab hasn't exploded and burned your house down yet!" would not avail as a defense. Based on what we know about this universe just on the basis of using the Godbound system alone, a rogue magic user is a meth lab at best, quite possibly (like in our own case) a Soviet nuclear plant or worse.

[Kilojoule Proton]

D

[King Zultan]

D

[Fluffe9911]

Let me put it like this. Imagine that, instead of witchcraft, these people are building meth labs. I have no issue with people using or making meth if they want to have meth. But if someone builds a meth lab in the house next door, I will absolutely gather up the neighbors to run him out of town, or up a tree if necessary. "But my meth lab hasn't exploded and burned your house down yet!" would not avail as a defense. Based on what we know about this universe just on the basis of using the Godbound system alone, a rogue magic user is a meth lab at best, quite possibly (like in our own case) a Soviet nuclear plant or worse.

Isn't the main difference choice? I mean you can choose to build a methlab but im not sure you can choose to be able to do magic or be a undead freak of nature for most of your life without realizing it.

Anyway moral debates that touch upon core values aside time to remove this guys choice D I guess.

[Maximum Spin]

Let me put it like this. Imagine that, instead of witchcraft, these people are building meth labs. I have no issue with people using or making meth if they want to have meth. But if someone builds a meth lab in the house next door, I will absolutely gather up the neighbors to run him out of town, or up a tree if necessary. "But my meth lab hasn't exploded and burned your house down yet!" would not avail as a defense. Based on what we know about this universe just on the basis of using the Godbound system alone, a rogue magic user is a meth lab at best, quite possibly (like in our own case) a Soviet nuclear plant or worse.

Isn't the main difference choice? I mean you can choose to build a methlab but im not sure you can choose to be able to do magic or be a undead freak of nature for most of your life without realizing it.

That makes it worse, not better. It means you have no way to stop being a danger to your community, since no matter how hard you promise not to use the power, you could slip up at any moment.

[chubby2man]

A curse on him, you decide, as your will crystallizes and the friar begins to shake. Your eyes flash with an unearthly brilliance, as the friar is exposed to the blinding truths of the world.


“Friar Gerus, you have lied and deceived your people for your own gain. You are hereby cursed to only speak the truth, and to hold only to the Truth in your heart.” Voice like thunder, you pronounce your Judgment, as the friar screams as his mental truth implodes, and his body collapses bonelessly to the ground. (½ Effort remaining)


You wait passively as his followers rush to his side in a panic. They give you fearful glances as you walk over to the captives. You begin snapping their bonds, and a guard nearby hesitantly reaches to stop you.


“They are innocent,” the friar says, his eyes furious. His mouth works in a rage. “I have no claim on them”


“You are correct,” You reply as you turn back to freeing the prisoner’s bonds.


It is only when you reach the witch does Friar Gerus speak again. “She, however, is guilty. Black and unholy magic is hers to command. She will burn,” He says, poisonous satisfaction dripping from every word.


You shrug, break her bindings at her wrist and remove her gag.
“Whoops,” you say, taking a step back.


She laughs as her eyes begin to glow and and a dark nimbus appears around her hands. The crowd begins to flee, leaving the Friar alone and trembling in a mixture of terror and fury.


“I will take these folk under my custody,” you tell the friar, and he can only stand there and nod. The witch looks ready to argue, but your steady gaze on her leads to a reluctant agreement as her magic dissipates.


Friar Gerus stands stiffly as you lead his former prisoners out of his grasp. You do not look back as he falls to his knees.



You begin taking the youngest back to their villages. Peria, the young girl who you were sent to rescue, breaks into tears of happiness at the sight of her mother, lets out a great cry and rushes to embrace her lost daughter. You hope the trauma of the friar’s “teachings” don’t stay with her long.

The witch watches this all with a wistful look. She has hung back from you during your travels, and this is the closest you have stood together. She catches you staring and turns your gaze to you.


“And what is your plan for me, my dark and mysterious savior? I have no mother to return me to,” she asks with a smirk, but her eyes watch you intensely.



You say-

A- You are free to go. Let her loose, and let her know of your tower if she needs sanctuary. Gain an ally you may call upon for aid.

B- I am in need of a Witch at my court. Unlock Dark Magic options at Turn planning and gain magic counselor.

C- I am in need of a leader for my future followers. Unlock options for a dark magic cult lead by a witch. Gain Cult Leader.

D- Unfortunately, you are too dangerous to be left alive. Kill her, gain favor of your own with the Church of the Lightbringer.

E-Something else?

Spoiler: On Dark/Unholy Magic (click to show/hide)

Sure! Dark/unholy magic is pretty much any magic that doesn’t come from a divine source, or by their will. Of course this covers everything from scholar-wizards to human sacrifice level necromancers, so most recognize that there is a tolerable range. It can also involve being in service to evil powers that corrupt the soul and such.

For the most part, having magical potential is not enough to “stain” you, but actually using that power in a spell is.

 Our witch has throw a few curses around, but hasn’t sacrificed an innocent for power or anything.

And of course your soul is blacker than pitch, being an undying abomination.

[Glass]

Per queries on Discord, “dark magic” is essentially any that comes from non-divine sources, and can range all the way up and down the spectrum in terms of morality - from a straight-laced scholar-wizard who can barely stand the sight of blood all the way to somebody sacrificing babies for power. We basically qualified at the low end until we became a Lich King and basically shot ourselves to “among the worst of the worst” in the eyes of the church.

We’ve been told that the witch has definitely used some curses, and is not at the “sacrifice people” end of the scale. More specific than that is currently unknown.

I personally suspect that B is the best option. We can keep an eye on her, we don’t give her too much power over others, we can at least try to direct her on the straight and narrow, and if necessary, we can take her down later.

[Fluffe9911]

B