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[Egan_BW]

What did you like most about the setup?

• I won!

What did you dislike the most about the setup?

• Early game was awkward, too much roleshit and not enough genuine interactions. Also I was just in a bad mood and was made irrationally angry by being asked to - out my message after hammer, because I was trying to post but kept getting "someone posted before you!" warnings and missed it by 10 fucking seconds. For my games I'd allow posting but not voting after hammer.

What did you like most about your role?

• I had a simple role which I liked, it was satisfying to be able to use super actions. Oh, and flavor text!

What did you dislike the most about your role?

• Not much. Just losing my whole role seems a bit lukewarm for being flavor-wise "doomed" but like, that's understandable for balance. And on the other hand I played a game as a Doomed Magical Girl and survived to the end with a happy ending, been wanting to do that for years.

What would have improved the setup?

• I dunno.

What advice do you have for future BYOR moderators?

• do it coward [directed at self]

What other comments would you like to make?

• mafia is hard

Should self-voting be removed from Beginner games?

• yesh

Was Night 0 better or worse for the game than traditional RVS?

• Insufficient data. I would personally either remove N0 or do as wuba just said and give each role N0-only actions.

[webadict]

I want to play simpler mafia games.

One of the biggest turn offs for playing a complicated setup like this (beginner) setup is that reasoning through night and role results is draining and it's stressful if the analysis isn't fruitful, which is already likely to happen if everybody is telling the truth and almost a certainty if anybody lies or omits something.

I gather that some people like it but it's not my thing.

Anyways, good game. Also good job webadict and the rest of the town for carrying hard while I carried water for the scumteam again.

I suppose that needs to be added to the survey too.

Was Night 0 better or worse for the game than traditional RVS?

I hate it. It was awful. It turned Day 1 into Day 2 but without any Day 1 reads.

I like being able to make a read after somebody's first post, whether it's right or wrong. In this game it was just role result role result role result role result for Day 1 and 80% of the rest of the game.

I kinda agree with this take, though I'm not sure what constitutes the simpler aspect (I disagree with that portion, probably.)

But, Jim's kinda right. Night 0 made things very tech focused, and I think the end goal is to make it more Day-oriented. Maybe a lot of this was to stop thinking so hard about the tech and to focus on the ex(ecutes). This does push a very specific version of Mafia, but it leaves the Beginner aspect behind. We SHOULD be pushing a Day focus, but I don't think we should leave the Night game out of that entirely. If there was a good way to balance that, it'd be for the best, but... I'd say there probably isn't an easy way.

It did feel like the game was moving simultaneously too fast and too slow at the same time, and the whiplash hurt.

[Roden]

What did you like most about the setup?
-It was fun and I loved the role themes. There wasn't much room for scum to hide behind mechanics, so just straight up lying about redirections and bus swaps was funny.

What did you dislike the most about the setup?
Ehh...I think town was overloaded with confirmable abilities and ways to thwart scum. A multi targeting Mailman Role Cop Ability disabler extra voter with an auto rez that can't be stolen is kind of...a lot, to put it lightly. There was zero counter play to that. Add on multiple town roles with protections, disables, redirection, roleblocks, extra votes, and a conditional Vig kill...it just seems like a statistical inevitability that MYLO will contain multiple confirmed town.

I feel like our abilities also pushed us to play in a certain way, but town roles hard countered and punished us for doing so. Max's role should've allowed him to tank getting targeted a bunch and get powered up for it, but instead town was given a role that allowed them to roleblock him without actually visiting him and triggering his gimmick.

What did you like most about your role?
The theme.

What did you dislike the most about your role?
It couldn't really do much. I don't really get the point of the Track kill.

What would have improved the setup?
Less complexity and ambiguity tbh.

What advice do you have for future BYOR moderators?
Modding is hard.

What other comments would you like to make?
Nothing much, I had fun for the most part.

Should self-voting be removed from Beginner games?
Nah.

[hector13]

I think the previous way of doing beginner games was sufficient, and having a couple of different setups made it slightly less formulaic.

I think possibly we should work from that rather than having everyone as a PR.

[Egan_BW]

I'm not gonna play something like that.

[webadict]

I think the previous way of doing beginner games was sufficient, and having a couple of different setups made it slightly less formulaic.

I think possibly we should work from that rather than having everyone as a PR.

I think we found that the old method didn't attract as many new players as we were hoping, and personally, I kinda like a little more chaos than normal.

Now, does it have to be BYORs? Not necessarily. I think people would enjoy things like Paranormals, where the setup is semi-closed as well. There's a bit of a stepping stone from power-crazy to intrigue, and I think our old position was more off-putting than intended. But, it IS a good testing ground, and we do see some new people playing because of it.

I think if we want more social deduction, we'll probably have to start small with things like Vengfuls, because those are likely to get enough players.

[Lenglon]

What did you like most about the setup?
I felt like I had agency and my decisions mattered. Not feeling helpless the way the old BM games did makes these actually fun unlike that repulsive trash. I could actually recommend someone play these, and the old ones I would never, ever, recommend to anyone that wants to actually have fun playing the game.

What did you dislike the most about the setup?
too few protects / kills, too many variations on action investigators.

What did you like most about your role?
the theming was absolutely amazing, and it was super satisfying to play in general. I would absolutely accept that role again.

What did you dislike the most about your role?
I didn't have a reasonable way to use my 1-shot. It was thematically VERY good, but the way it required visiting my target on an earlier night before I could use it plus it had a delayed activation which combined made it super hard to use just because of how slow it was. Additionally it was designed to counter a player that didn't perform any visits, so simply not requireing that I have them pre-diseased would have made it worlds more reasonable to use on the designed target, since my odds of actually diseasing that player was super low.

What would have improved the setup?
fewer investigative tools for the town. protects and kills can be thrown everywhere without problems, but investigative tools invite mechanical gameplay focus which generally isn't supposed to be the goal in a Beginner's game.

What advice do you have for future BYOR moderators?
I'm not qualified to answer this.

What other comments would you like to make?
I can't emphasize enough how much I enjoyed the themeing of my role, and how satisfying it was in general to play it out.

Should self-voting be removed from Beginner games?
Yes

[NJW2000]

Can I ask what the old BMs people keep referring to were like?


I remember playing something near-mountainous here half a decade ago, which I think must have been a Beginner's mafia, so maybe it's that. I'm actually very comfortable playing a Vanilla Townie and relying on reads, although I understand the newer players at the moment have less confidence in that, so maybe making people do that wouldn't be the kindest thing.

There have been newbie-friendly games in the more recent past like IcyTea's Vanilla Tea Mafia in which every player had a power, but were still very unlike the past few BBYORs. That game had a strong focus on reads, and even when it didn't, the mechanical analysis involved was far less complex and still did not directly out scum. It could not be considered a bastard game, the roles had a certain logic, and newer players weren't forced to consider godfathers, millers, etc. Perhaps it would be possible to create a BYOR resembling that game.

[Lenglon]

3 scum with no abilities, all vanilla townies but 1, who is either a doc or a cop.
And to be fair, the ones I at least played in were plauged by Extends

[hector13]

3 scum with no abilities, all vanilla townies but 1, who is either a doc or a cop.
And to be fair, the ones I at least played in were plauged by Extends

We don’t do extensions anymore because holy fuck people used them all the goddamn time and it was so boring. I think we have learned the hard way that extensions are only to be used sparingly, and in specific circumstances, like if a player replaces in.

The BMs got updated a few times, the doc got changed to a jailkeeper and there was always a JK and a cop,  it then it got changed to three possible of having one, other, or both in the most recent iterations I remember.

You did play a BM NJW, I was in it being a horrible person.

[NJW2000]

You did play a BM NJW, I was in it being a horrible person.

I wasn't that pleasant to interact with then, I suspect... teenage years.

And yeah, extensions can be awful... the worst thing about the newbie game by IcyTea I linked was probably an extend killing activity.

[EuchreJack]

Arguably, self-voting should be allowable so that beginners can be broken of that habit in a beginner environment, but realistically banning it in beginner games will create the habit of not self-voting, and since it is borderline useless, no problem with its ban.

[Maximum Spin]

Huh, I thought you guys would have figured out by the end of the last day that Roden and I just faked the "web message redirection" thing, but I see web was still trying to explain it for a while. I figured it was something that, once it was noticed, would make it obvious that Roden being my partner was the simplest explanation for all the d1 confusion.

[EuchreJack]

Everyone knows you can't trust simplest explanations!

[ToonyMan]

Banning self voting is restrictive. There are situations where a player would want to self-vote, such as outted scum at L-1 to end discussions preemptively.

Banning self voting loses creativity. Look at how scum!Roden voted themselves in this game to appear more town.