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[ThtblovesDF]

...  competitive ...

It doesn't have to be, my dom4 games taught me that winning is for other people (usually those good at diplomacy and with a long-term-plan). But you can pick who loses with you.

Playing underwater nations is a sure way to get into late game for better or worse.

[MCreeper]

Ah, that reminds me. Spare me the diplomacy and do not send me any offers of NAPs or alliances. No matter what they may be, i will refuse them. This shit is easier to tolerate on bay12, but i'm still disgusted by the whole idea. Trade is fine, though. 

[Il Palazzo]

but i'm still disgusted by the whole idea.

You, sir, are no fun.

[Il Palazzo]

Let's start discussing the map, so that we may begin around the weekend. This is likely all the players we'll get.


I'm currently very fond of Floating Archipelago:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2662841126

169+20UW provinces, fixed starts. With 8 players it gives about ~24 per. Without an underwater nation most of the UW will likely end up in Agartha's and Fomoria's hands, unless they find themselves cut off.
There's some wacky connections here. Not entirely balanced (a plus in my book). Easy to block (and piss off) your competition. Not hard to redeploy across vast distances thanks to the cloud connections. Check it out.


Objections, approvals, counter-proposals - commence.

Also, we still a1s to declare a nation, so that people may take it into account when designing pretenders.

[Shootandrun]

The lack of UW players is going to be a big balance issue on Floating Archipelago - it will be a big advantage to Fomoria and Agartha (which is me!), as you said. Even worse, given some starts are far from the water IIRC, you could get a situation where only one of us has water access - they'd be able to expand normally on land while taking a massive province advantage UW.

That being said, I'd also much prefer a pretty map with neat features over something randomly generated, and I know of no pretty maps that don't have at least 20-30 water provinces. So... I guess I have no solution to offer.

I would be happy with Floating Archipelago. If we want a smaller game, Isles of Nippon'ia is beautiful and would be closer to ~16 provinces per player, though I've never played it: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1658588039
It has a higher water province ratio (111+19), so that one REALLY only works if we have an UW player.

[Karlito]

Been playing some tests on Floating Archipelago. Interesting mix of isolated map sections and cross map bridges. Gotten expansion parties stranded a couple times when temperature scales shifted- definitely some design strategy to be had there (cold blocks up the mountain passes- for good or ill). Maybe a bit large for 8, but I don't entirely mind that. Plenty of caves for our Agarthan friends too.

Dunno what it is, but expansion seems harder than on a typical random map (not necessarily a bad thing). Don't think it's just the connection density either- seems like there's fewer pushover poptypes. Been finding lots of heavy cav and 80 barbarian provinces.

Anyway, all that to say I'd be happy with it, though I'd better try and figure out some midgame underwater strategies.

[Il Palazzo]

it will be a big advantage to Fomoria and Agartha (which is me!), as you said. Even worse, given some starts are far from the water IIRC, you could get a situation where only one of us has water access - they'd be able to expand normally on land while taking a massive province advantage UW.

Well I don't mind. We need a Big Bad to focus our rituals on. Other than MCreeper, that is.

[E. Albright]

I'm gonna regret this (I really didn't find the last round enjoyable), but if there's an issue on the map with a lack of UW players, I'll join as R'lyeh. You can't get any more UW than EA R'lyeh. This will be an exercise in misery. Misery, and polyps.

That being said, I'd also much prefer a pretty map with neat features over something randomly generated, and I know of no pretty maps that don't have at least 20-30 water provinces.

If you want a pretty map with less than 20-30 water, I always suggest Sharivar, but it's very much not wrapped.

[Il Palazzo]

Lol. I was just waiting for you to come, complain about bad judgement, and pick R'lyeh. You predictable you.

[E. Albright]

Hey, now, if y'all hadn't been complaining about UW nations, I was gonna come, complain about bad judgement, and pick Abysia (Who's a cute little Hellspawn? It's you! It's you!) or Xibalba (Who's a fuzzy wittle scorpion who'll help a cheeky bat steal the sun?). So while yes, this is true to form, I blame you lot.

[ThtblovesDF]

If we play a bigger map, could we reduce the number of thrones, increase the level and put a strong focus on those?

I.e. my silly wish would be:

3x lvl 3 Thrones

3x lvl 2 Thrones.

3x lvl 1 Thrones

9 Victory points to win. (So either the 3 big ones or all other ones or a mixture)


I'm sure a more expierenced players can twist that into something resonable, that retains a focus on high value thrones and fits the map/proivince numbers.

___

Its crazy to me that any nation could go "screw it, underwater breathing bless, we UW now".

____

 I look forward to seeing some good ol cheese & salt.

[Il Palazzo]

My personal preference is 7x1, 5x2, 3x3, for a total of 26, with something like 14-16 to win.
I just like the idea of people further customising their nations during gameplay with throne effects, potentially throwing a wrench into somebody's strategy.

[E. Albright]

One thing that concerns me for FA is that it appears Agartha won't start underground. In fact, once I saw them aboveground and started testing, I didn't even see them starting particularly close to caves - just out in big open plains areas. That's going to be more of an issue for EA Argartha than any other era. This could be solved by uploading a version w/o fixed starts (or one that adds a fixed starting position for Agartha in particular underground), but otherwise they'll be suffering despite being on a map that's ostensibly underground-friendly...

As an aside, having maps as Steam workshop items is handy for keeping them updated and all, but it's a real PITA when you want to look at a map, either in a text editor or using the in-game map editor (which doesn't look in the mods directory when looking at the maps you can open).

[Shootandrun]

I'd prefer to have more thrones than fewer; I actually find high level thrones a little underwhelming compared to low level ones (level 3 Thrones don't feel three times as impactful as level 1 Thrones). Il Palazzo's proposal would work for me, for example.

One thing that concerns me for FA is that it appears Agartha won't start underground. In fact, once I saw them aboveground and started testing, I didn't even see them starting particularly close to caves - just out in big open plains areas. That's going to be more of an issue for EA Argartha than any other era. This could be solved by uploading a version w/o fixed starts (or one that adds a fixed starting position for Agartha in particular underground), but otherwise they'll be suffering despite being on a map that's ostensibly underground-friendly...

I've noticed the issue too. It's a bit of a tragedy because I could swear Floating Archipelago used to reliably start Agartha in a cave network, but I wouldn't say it's a catastrophe. In most "normal" games Agartha can't really count on finding more than one or two caves through the game, and FA actually has some areas that are fairly cave-generous even outside the big cave network.

[WealthyRadish]

I find that the level 2 thrones are the most interesting, and personally don't even include the other tiers when playing SP. Maybe the MP dynamic is a bit different.