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[Strongpoint]

Funny, I don't want to silence people who are either actively murdering my compatriots or support the murderers. I want them to be heard loud and clear (I'd also prefer the media to stop presenting their lies as possible "truth" in their stupid quest for "neutrality" but it is a very different topic).  I want people to see who they are. And I want a place to engage them in public debate. And I want to know how my enemy thinks. And rarely, I am even ready to show compassion and empathy to people that don't look completely consumed by this, hoping to plant seeds of... something.


I also don't want them to suffer. Sometimes, my emotional side does wish them very horrible fates, sometimes I wish for cruel revenge. But my rational side only wants to stop them from being able to cause suffering to others. A bullet between their eyes will do nicely.

I also don't believe in hell, there are no rational reasons to believe that such place exists or is even probable. If I did, I wouldn't wish it to anyone. Infinite suffering for a finite crime is the opposite of justice.

[EuchreJack]

I think you've also shown the loss to the intelligence community from censoring one's enemies.

[Quarque]

I tried to engage with pro-Putin people on youtube a couple of times. One time the conversation actually seemed to help him see things from a different perspective. Rare, but it happens.

In another case a guy responded with "I dated some Ukranian women and they weren't as smart as Russian women." And he somehow thought that meant Putin was right. Amazing.

[Starver]

In another case a guy responded with "I dated some Ukranian women and they weren't as smart as Russian women." And he somehow thought that meant Putin was right. Amazing.

Possibly the smarter Ukrainians just didn't want to date him?

(One step away from Incel psychology. "The thing that is wrong is definitely not myself, so therefore the only logical reason is <one or other contrived and generally stupid all-encompassing theory which is more full of holes than a rusty collander>...")

[Quarque]

Possibly the smarter Ukrainians just didn't want to date him?

My first impulse was to say exactly that, but I stopped myself and left it there. Not worth the effort.

[MaxTheFox]

Funny, I don't want to silence people who are either actively murdering my compatriots or support the murderers. I want them to be heard loud and clear (I'd also prefer the media to stop presenting their lies as possible "truth" in their stupid quest for "neutrality" but it is a very different topic).  I want people to see who they are. And I want a place to engage them in public debate. And I want to know how my enemy thinks. And rarely, I am even ready to show compassion and empathy to people that don't look completely consumed by this, hoping to plant seeds of... something.

I already know full well how the Nazis think. I needn't know more, and I have deemed it enough to condemn them as human garbage without exceptions.

I also don't want them to suffer. Sometimes, my emotional side does wish them very horrible fates, sometimes I wish for cruel revenge. But my rational side only wants to stop them from being able to cause suffering to others. A bullet between their eyes will do nicely.

I don't care about rationality, I just want to make them suffer and I don't want them to offend people by spreading their fascist ideals. It isn't about helping them improve or whatever.

I also don't believe in hell, there are no rational reasons to believe that such place exists or is even probable. If I did, I wouldn't wish it to anyone. Infinite suffering for a finite crime is the opposite of justice.

See above.

I think you've also shown the loss to the intelligence community from censoring one's enemies.

Intelligence against homegrown fascists? Funny joke.

I tried to engage with pro-Putin people on youtube a couple of times. One time the conversation actually seemed to help him see things from a different perspective. Rare, but it happens.

In another case a guy responded with "I dated some Ukranian women and they weren't as smart as Russian women." And he somehow thought that meant Putin was right. Amazing.

See, some are just brainwashed due to propaganda coming from all directions, others are simply either too far gone or not all right in the head. Not to mention how hard it is to change someone's mind online.

[Strongpoint]

I already know full well how the Nazis think. I needn't know more, and I have deemed it enough to condemn them as human garbage without exceptions.

I am quite confident that you don't know how Nazis think. I am even more confident than you have no idea how "Nazis" aka the whole radical part of the right political spectrum think. You have simplified dehumanized evil strawmen in your head and it is convenient to hate them to see yourself as a good and just person.

I don't care about rationality, I just want to make them suffer and I don't want them to offend people by spreading their fascist ideals. It isn't about helping them improve or whatever.

You don't need to repeat this. I understood. I am merely saying that wanting to make people suffer is evil and immoral. Not wanting to help human beings when there is a possibility is also evil and immoral. You need to hear this. Perhaps, later, you will understand this.

[heydude6]

I may regret contributing to this, but I had a thought that I couldn’t leave idle.

Personally, I believe the root of the problem comes from algorithms designed to feed us personalized information that conforms to our beliefs, rather than the simple presence of toxic information on a platform.

Case in point, the YouTube comments section. As far as I know, Everyone gets the exact same comments presented to them. Though some information does get signal-boosted, it’s shown to everyone including those who want to refute it, which helps curb misinformation.

What I often see there is that whenever someone spouts some crazy bullshit, there will a dozen of people who will dogpile on them to refute their points. It may not change the mind of the original commentor, but a neutral audience usually gets the message and understands why those beliefs are unacceptable and incorrect, both educating and inoculating them against future misinformation. No Censorship required.

This system only breaks down in the comments sections of videos made by the far Right, which are only watched by an incredibly deluded niche. Those places are echo chambers that allow insanity to fester since any person who wanders in will see that the sane voices are drastically outnumbered by the insane.

Thus, I believe that the real enemy is the echo chamber and the systems that funnel impressionable people towards them while simultaneously keeping out the educated. To play the game of censorship, is to play an endless game of Whack-a-mole that will inevitably turn awry once the mallet ends up in the wrong pair of hands (like we are seeing now). We must change the flow of information itself if we are to solve this problem for good, and it must be a system that takes advantage of the differences between true information and false.

False and outrageous information only has the advantage now because we naively designed algorithms that ended up biased to give it the advantage. It is not the only way, but it may require the passing of laws to make such changes profitable though.

[EuchreJack]

Facebook & Twitter have both been accused of creating echo chambers under the same principles.
(wow, I seem to be quite the train conductor lately!)

[MaxTheFox]

I already know full well how the Nazis think. I needn't know more, and I have deemed it enough to condemn them as human garbage without exceptions.

I am quite confident that you don't know how Nazis think. I am even more confident than you have no idea how "Nazis" aka the whole radical part of the right political spectrum think. You have simplified dehumanized evil strawmen in your head and it is convenient to hate them to see yourself as a good and just person.

I know they are trash who want to wipe minorities out and end democracy. That is all I ever need to know about them to hate them.

I don't care about rationality, I just want to make them suffer and I don't want them to offend people by spreading their fascist ideals. It isn't about helping them improve or whatever.

You don't need to repeat this. I understood. I am merely saying that wanting to make people suffer is evil and immoral. Not wanting to help human beings when there is a possibility is also evil and immoral. You need to hear this. Perhaps, later, you will understand this.

Making people suffer is moral if they are fascists. Helping fascists is also immoral.

[Strongpoint]

Making people suffer is moral if they are fascists

Yay! Making people suffer is moral if they are [insert according to your ideology]. Dehumanization 101

No, it isn't. It really isn't. Inflicting suffering can only be moral only if it can prevent greater suffering.

Inflicting suffering to radicals will only radicalize them further and they WILL retaliate in one way or another. It also may make them look like victims and martyrs helping them to recruit more people.

[MaxTheFox]

Making people suffer is moral if they are fascists

Yay! Making people suffer is moral if they are [insert according to your ideology]. Dehumanization 101

No, it isn't. It really isn't. Inflicting suffering can only be moral only if it can prevent greater suffering.

Inflicting suffering to radicals will only radicalize them further and they WILL retaliate in one way or another. It also may make them look like victims and martyrs helping them to recruit more people.

1. I literally have basically zero sympathy for those who want to wipe out minorities.
2. I do not subscribe to utilitarianism.
3. If they are not repressed, they will instead of retaliating, make attacks on their own. And the whole goal of suppressing them is so they find it harder to recruit people.

[King Zultan]

Max seems so blinded by their hate of what they think Nazis are that I don't think they'd recognize a Nazi if one sat next to them on a bus.

[EuchreJack]

Eh, I think we can cut Max some slack.

I'm a white male semi-professional heterosexual living in a mostly-free society.

Max....isn't.

Telling Max to calm down is like telling Anne Frank that the Nazis have children too.
Which admittedly, Anne Frank has some rather decent things to say about humanity.
But yeah. I'm not holding everyone up to that standard.

The other issue is that most of us probably ascribe to a highly individualist worldview.  The rights of the one should not be oppressed by the right of the many.
And we're mostly living in cultures where that worldview is the norm.

But not all the world believes that.  There are reasonably civilized parts of the world that instead adopt the collectivists worldview.  The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.

[MaxTheFox]

Max seems so blinded by their hate of what they think Nazis are that I don't think they'd recognize a Nazi if one sat next to them on a bus.

What are you trying to say with this? No, they don't have "Nazi" written on their foreheads. When someone says something like "gas the Jews", however, they're either a Nazi or might as well be, and thus need to be silenced.

Eh, I think we can cut Max some slack.

I'm a white male semi-professional heterosexual living in a mostly-free society.

Max....isn't.

Telling Max to calm down is like telling Anne Frank that the Nazis have children too.
Which admittedly, Anne Frank has some rather decent things to say about humanity.
But yeah. I'm not holding everyone up to that standard.

The other issue is that most of us probably ascribe to a highly individualist worldview.  The rights of the one should not be oppressed by the right of the many.
And we're mostly living in cultures where that worldview is the norm.

But not all the world believes that.  There are reasonably civilized parts of the world that instead adopt the collectivists worldview.  The idea that individuals owe certain obligations towards a well-ordered society, and that society can compel individuals into action or inaction for the Greater Good.

Exactly. If you ask me to tolerate those who want people like me to not exist, I will rightfully tell you to piss off. And yes I am a collectivist.