Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 69

Author Topic: Twitter is Dead, Long Live X!  (Read 65129 times)

Strongpoint

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #120 on: May 18, 2022, 08:36:11 am »

1. No it isn't, if it means the other 99% are allowed to speak freely. Fuck the 1% then. I don't want them to get better, I want them to suffer if it means all other fascists suffer too. They're casualties, nothing more.

Oh, acceptable collateral damage. I see. I see. The worst kind of crimes against humanity were born from this kind of thinking.

And I suggest you to stop living in the world of labels like fascist or authleft. Actual human beings are way more complex than those words. Those labels may be necessary to vaguely describe political movements and even then they are very approximate


I can say that my political views can be summarized as Nationalist, Liberal, Anti-theist but... it is meaningless. Ask ten different people what those words mean and you'll get very different answers (especially if those people are from different countries). And based on their definition, many will say that a liberal can't be a nationalist because those are opposites, many will say that one can't be a nationalist if he rejects the religion of his ancestors.

This is why I don't bother using those labels, all they do is create confusion.
Logged
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. Boom!!! Sooner or later.

MaxTheFox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Лишь одна дорожка да на всей земле
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #121 on: May 18, 2022, 08:45:20 am »

1. No it isn't, if it means the other 99% are allowed to speak freely. Fuck the 1% then. I don't want them to get better, I want them to suffer if it means all other fascists suffer too. They're casualties, nothing more.

Oh, acceptable collateral damage. I see. I see. The worst kind of crimes against humanity were born from this kind of thinking.
This would be a good argument if they weren't literal fascists. Again, if someone doesn't want me to exist then I return the favor.

And I suggest you to stop living in the world of labels like fascist or authleft. Actual human beings are way more complex than those words. Those labels may be necessary to vaguely describe political movements and even then they are very approximate


I can say that my political views can be summarized as Nationalist, Liberal, Anti-theist but... it is meaningless. Ask ten different people what those words mean and you'll get very different answers (especially if those people are from different countries). And based on their definition, many will say that a liberal can't be a nationalist because those are opposites, many will say that one can't be a nationalist if he rejects the religion of his ancestors.

This is why I don't bother using those labels, all they do is create confusion.
Oh I know that actual ideologies are more complex. Labels are just groupings. I think they are useful for not describing everything about your beliefs every time you mention them. For me it's probably... Statism, (Christian) Market Socialism, Technocracy, Progressivism.
Logged
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

MaxTheFox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Лишь одна дорожка да на всей земле
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #122 on: May 18, 2022, 10:21:41 am »

Alright Max tell me something, to derail a bit, but what do you think should happen to those who are proven to be mentally ill and possibly dangerous to society and prone to radicalisation.

I'm talking schizophrenics, paranoids, people suffering from paranoia, delusions, people on the autism spectrum, psychopaths and sociopaths, emotionally imbalanced people and those with anger issues. I can point to several cases where people with these problems were perpetrators, or attempted to commit a mass shooting or kill many people.

Actually to make it simpler I'm gonna propose you a mental exercise of sorts, in front of you there's a button, you press it and it will kill every single person with these kinds of mental issues, would you press it?
They should be encouraged to get counseling to help prevent them from radicalizing into fascists and/or committing hate crimes. But they should not be punished for having mental issues, that's just horrible.

As for the hypothetical, that's a hard no. I don't support killing fascists or especially people who could become fascists but aren't.
Logged
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

Strongpoint

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #123 on: May 18, 2022, 11:41:45 am »

Quote from: MaxTheFox

They should be encouraged to get counseling to help prevent them from radicalizing into fascists and/or committing hate crimes. But they should not be punished for having mental issues, that's just horrible.

So... People with mental issues (which are HARDER to fix than mere views) should be encouraged to get counseling but fascists should be isolated and hurt? Don't you see any contradiction?

The way to defeat any form of radicalism is to get them out of their echo chamber not to isolate them there. Sure, pushing those people out of YOUR internet for your convenience is a comfortable option but easy solutions are rarely the right solutions.
Logged
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. Boom!!! Sooner or later.

MaxTheFox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Лишь одна дорожка да на всей земле
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #124 on: May 18, 2022, 11:48:11 am »

Quote from: MaxTheFox

They should be encouraged to get counseling to help prevent them from radicalizing into fascists and/or committing hate crimes. But they should not be punished for having mental issues, that's just horrible.

So... People with mental issues (which are HARDER to fix than mere views) should be encouraged to get counseling but fascists should be isolated and hurt? Don't you see any contradiction?

The way to defeat any form of radicalism is to get them out of their echo chamber not to isolate them there. Sure, pushing those people out of YOUR internet for your convenience is a comfortable option but easy solutions are rarely the right solutions.
There is no contradiction. One doesn't hold harmful beliefs but is susceptible to potentially forming them, and hardly even likely to (I'm on the autism spectrum myself). The other is already radicalized, actively propagandizing their beliefs and is often too entrenched to fix.

You already admitted that perhaps 1% of fascists can be rescued. That is not acceptable if it means that the other 99% run free. It is simply better to isolate them all. I don't care for helping them. You don't understand that their isolation and marginalization is my goal in and of itself.
Logged
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

Strongpoint

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #125 on: May 18, 2022, 12:36:48 pm »

You already admitted that perhaps 1% of fascists can be rescued. That is not acceptable if it means that the other 99% run free. It is simply better to isolate them all. I don't care for helping them. You don't understand that their isolation and marginalization is my goal in and of itself.

No, I didn't admit anything like that. I said "if we can help 1% to get out of the spiral of hate, it is a worthy effort."

It doesn't mean that I think that only 1% can be brought out. This percentage is way higher, especially for people under 30

Also, you won't marginalize ideologies by isolating them. You'll make them look like fighters for truth in the eyes of the very people they prey on in their recruitment.

The way to marginalize something is through constant discussion, constant disproving of their lies and\or misconceptions, and constant exposing of corruption of their leaders. It is harder than "hey, let's cancel all members of group X from our bubble and pretend the problem is solved," but it is the only real way to do it.

Logged
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. Boom!!! Sooner or later.

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #126 on: May 18, 2022, 12:39:11 pm »

Quote from: MaxTheFox

They should be encouraged to get counseling to help prevent them from radicalizing into fascists and/or committing hate crimes. But they should not be punished for having mental issues, that's just horrible.

So... People with mental issues (which are HARDER to fix than mere views) should be encouraged to get counseling but fascists should be isolated and hurt? Don't you see any contradiction?

The way to defeat any form of radicalism is to get them out of their echo chamber not to isolate them there. Sure, pushing those people out of YOUR internet for your convenience is a comfortable option but easy solutions are rarely the right solutions.
So first off, the fascist position is to isolate and hurt people with mental issues (plus anything that the fascist considers an issue, like ethnicity or sexuality).  Fascists only want tolerance (like "free speech") as far as it assists their intolerant agenda.  This may seem like an impossible paradox, but it's actually quite simple:  Don't tolerate intolerance.  I can be against violence and still attack a spree shooter.  I guess it's a mix of moral calculus and basic common sense.

Every "free speech platform" has been banning the obvious stuff, of course, but it turns out they go further and make sure their chosen ideology is the "freest" speech.  They're just liars.  Grifters and true believers alike are fine with lying to get what they want.

You know what happens when you try to engage with one of these chuckleheads with actual facts and logic?  Look into their studies?  Their arguments get absolutely destroyed... and it *doesn't help*.  They might spam some "LGBT are grooming!" nonsense in a dozen places and influence thousands of people, and then when you call them on it they'll literally go "I don't care that the article is factually incorrect, LGBT are still groomers".  They didn't reason themselves into the position so they cannot be reasoned out of it.

That's not everybody, obviously.  How do we reach the targets of this bad-faith propaganda?  Engaging the propagandists DOES NOT WORK for that, as youtube debate-bro culture has shown.  I figure there are two main situations:
1) Motivated rational people with free time will look into the studies and figure out the truth on their own
2) You feature the targeted minorities in popular culture until they don't appear so strange and scary anymore.

And like, part of situation 1 is making sure those studies and articles are around for anyone who cares to look.  That's how my mind was changed on a few things.  I would get in emotional and pointless arguments about an issue, enjoy some endorphins, and then someone else would drop some studies and refuse to engage me further.  The low-effort and low-pressure is what makes that a good strategy.  It got the information to me in a way I could untangle my feelings on my own time.  And the low-effort is VITAL to stop the deliberate misinformation campaign we're up against. 

I'm not worried not too worried about people in echo-chambers.  They're fine to hang out in, but they're inherently boring.  Someone hanging out in a radical space is already radicalized, and there's not much we can do (except celebrate the ones who find their way out!).  What radicalizes people is someone on national TV offering a scapegoat for all the Everyman's problems: """those people"""

(This is neither a purely left/right thing, but the tankies haven't mobilized a coup here recently.  They're not nearly so emboldened, partially because leftists keep dunking on them.  Justifiably so.  The right is much less principled.)
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Strongpoint

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #127 on: May 18, 2022, 01:00:51 pm »

Quote
You know what happens when you try to engage with one of these chuckleheads with actual facts and logic?  Look into their studies?  Their arguments get absolutely destroyed... and it *doesn't help*.
And here you are wrong. It doesn't help in a blink of an eye.

If you ever expect to talk with a person on their views and expect them going "Hey! You are right and I am wrong! Thank you for disproving of what I believed in years with your brilliant logic! I was so stupid!" then yep, it WILL NOT happen.

What will happen is that some of them will remember your facts, remember your logic, process it inside and adjust their position. And it may take years.

Of course "destroying someone's arguments" isn't the best of tactics if you actually want to change someone's opinion (but it is great in public debates to win neutrals\not let neutrals slip there) 
Logged
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. Boom!!! Sooner or later.

anewaname

  • Bay Watcher
  • The mattock... My choice for problem solving.
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #128 on: May 18, 2022, 07:37:45 pm »

The majority of those that "follow" an ideology are actually following their "friends/family herd leader" and they wear the ideology for their own safety, to protect themselves from those higher up the herd's hierarchy than themselves.

You cannot reason with them because of two vectors:
- you have fewer herd-bonds with them
- you offer less protection for them (where "protection" can be physical, social, and/or economic)
Logged
Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Dunamisdeos

  • Bay Watcher
  • Duggin was the hero we needed.
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #129 on: May 18, 2022, 07:49:42 pm »

Just punch the nazis, it makes the whole problem go away.
Logged
FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #130 on: May 18, 2022, 08:47:52 pm »

Mockery is sufficient.  The entire ideology is based on being terrified out of one's right mind, which might be why they've been cravenly hiding since WW2.  But now they have political daddy-figures patting their scared wittle heads, and "free speech" conservatives making bigotry "part of the conversation".  It emboldened them enough to invade and dominate a few "open minded" online spaces, from which they constantly try to invade and dominate more online lebensraum.

It turns out that really stupid and emotional arguments can blitzkrieg every "marketplace of ideas" they've been allowed into.  They aren't interested in rational discussion, they want to recruit more scared people into their mob. 

If anyone wants to try to deconvert these people by PM or in one of the many existing platforms they've already conquered, go right ahead... I got sick of all the culty mindgames and thought-ending mantras.  It's also literally dangerous - they fight dirty.  Kiwi-farms dirty.  They have to because they're weak and cowardly, and they justify it by being scared.  Plus we're "NPCs" instead of human beings, you know?
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

EuchreJack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lord of Norderland - Lv 20 SKOOKUM ROC
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #131 on: May 18, 2022, 08:55:36 pm »

Remember folks!

This discussion would have mostly likely been restricted at some point if it occurred on Twitter!

Thank you. You may resume your derailment.

Strongpoint

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #132 on: May 18, 2022, 09:47:00 pm »

Remember folks!

This discussion would have mostly likely been restricted at some point if it occurred on Twitter!

Thank you. You may resume your derailment.

Also, you would be cancelled in the very same twitter but one group or another
Logged
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. Boom!!! Sooner or later.

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #133 on: May 19, 2022, 02:24:16 am »

"Nooo you can't just ban the Nazis from social networks, you need to reason with them!"

Me: "haha banhammer go bonk"
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Mostly phone-posting, sorry for any typos or autocorrect hijinks.

MaxTheFox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Лишь одна дорожка да на всей земле
    • View Profile
Re: I deleted twitter and you should too
« Reply #134 on: May 19, 2022, 03:25:29 am »

What Rolan said, basically. I don't care for "planting seeds of change". I want them to suffer now. It is their punishment. I have a vendetta against them. They must all burn in the same Hell in which the Russian government will burn. No exceptions.

Remember folks!

This discussion would have mostly likely been restricted at some point if it occurred on Twitter!

Thank you. You may resume your derailment.
Oh I know, I still support censorship.
Logged
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 69