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[TD1]

It is impossible to prevent hate speech behind closed doors.

Not with that attitude.

This post suits Sundowner pretty well.

I read that as Sundrop and was like

When will the Sundrop hatespeech end

[Strongpoint]

There should never be any dialogue with fascists.

People change and dialogue is one of the few ways to make them change. The worst you can do is to push people into a bubble. Especially, if we are talking about young people.

[MaxTheFox]

There should never be any dialogue with fascists.

People change and dialogue is one of the few ways to make them change. The worst you can do is to push people into a bubble. Especially, if we are talking about young people.

It's basically impossible to change a fascist online so we shouldn't bother with letting them talk. I'm fine with them getting pushed into echo chambers (and rot there) as long as they shut the hell up on public platforms.

[TD1]

It's basically impossible to change a fascist online

An understandable misconception. You'll never win an argument with a fascist, never 'convert' them or convince them of the truth*, because that's not how such discourse operates. You stake your position. You defend that stake. The argument ends.

It's what happens afterwards that's significant. It's a form of reflection and understanding over time, reinforced by real-world experience.

I say this as someone who grew up in a deeply traditional and homogenous area. It was the quintessential echo chamber, of much the same construction as you would encourage by silencing people. How did I sift through the echoes to find my own thoughts and feelings? Largely, by arguing on this forum. I'd place a stake. I'd defend it. Afterwards, I'd reflect. The aggregate result was that my opinions changed.

((*Though I still find terms such as 'truth' problematic. It's all opinion, and I personally don't feel qualified to label anything objective 'truth.'))

[Strongpoint]

An understandable misconception. You'll never win an argument with a fascist, never 'convert' them or convince them of the truth*, because that's not how such discourse operates. You stake your position. You defend that stake. The argument ends.

It's what happens afterwards that's significant. It's a form of reflection and understanding over time, reinforced by real-world experience.

THIS. It is impossible to talk with a person and change their core views in minutes. All you can do - plant seeds. They'll take time to grow. Sure, in many cases, your seeds fall on a barren ground, but if you don't try you'll never (de)convert anyone.

[Quarque]

It's basically impossible to change a fascist online so we shouldn't bother with letting them talk.

When it comes to diehard fascists this is of course true, so it is good that moderators can permaban people on most platforms if they keep spamming hate speech and don't listen to warnings.

Then again, someone who says something offensive online once is usually not a diehard fascist, so a good moderator only applies permaban as a last resort.

[MaxTheFox]

It's basically impossible to change a fascist online

An understandable misconception. You'll never win an argument with a fascist, never 'convert' them or convince them of the truth*, because that's not how such discourse operates. You stake your position. You defend that stake. The argument ends.

It's what happens afterwards that's significant. It's a form of reflection and understanding over time, reinforced by real-world experience.

I say this as someone who grew up in a deeply traditional and homogenous area. It was the quintessential echo chamber, of much the same construction as you would encourage by silencing people. How did I sift through the echoes to find my own thoughts and feelings? Largely, by arguing on this forum. I'd place a stake. I'd defend it. Afterwards, I'd reflect. The aggregate result was that my opinions changed.

((*Though I still find terms such as 'truth' problematic. It's all opinion, and I personally don't feel qualified to label anything objective 'truth.'))

Bullshit. The vast majority of fascists are so entrenched in their ways that they will not take your argument to heart. Besides, if they're on the Internet, they have most likely have been exposed to non-fascist thought, and rejected it. Anyways, I'm more interested in them getting hurt.

An understandable misconception. You'll never win an argument with a fascist, never 'convert' them or convince them of the truth*, because that's not how such discourse operates. You stake your position. You defend that stake. The argument ends.

It's what happens afterwards that's significant. It's a form of reflection and understanding over time, reinforced by real-world experience.

THIS. It is impossible to talk with a person and change their core views in minutes. All you can do - plant seeds. They'll take time to grow. Sure, in many cases, your seeds fall on a barren ground, but if you don't try you'll never (de)convert anyone.

I am not really interested in trying to deconvert them, that is your misconception about my support of mass bans of fascists online. No. The goal is to punish them. To tell them that yes, the left is out to get them. I want to see them suffer. A depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.

It's basically impossible to change a fascist online so we shouldn't bother with letting them talk.

When it comes to diehard fascists this is of course true, so it is good that moderators can permaban people on most platforms if they keep spamming hate speech and don't listen to warnings.

Then again, someone who says something offensive online once is usually not a diehard fascist, so a good moderator only applies permaban as a last resort.

Fair, if someone says something mildly offensive once (and not "I think Hitler was right"), I'd give them a warning and be done.

[EuchreJack]

In Max's defense, it's easier to see fascists as misguided young people when they're not running your government_{into the ground}
In my defense, I forgot about my country's Supreme Court

[Strongpoint]

A depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.

Well, then expect random "Nazi" teenagers, which could be productive members of the society, to go depressed, anxious and... go out on a shooting rampage

[MaxTheFox]

A depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.

Well, then expect random "Nazi" teenagers, which could be productive members of the society, to go depressed, anxious and... go out on a shooting rampage

They would do it anyways. Again, it is completely pointless to try to change a fascist. I don't believe the vast majority of them can get any better. They are trash, they will always remain trash, I want to cause them as much pain and suffering as possible.

[EuchreJack]

Well, here is a hypothetical:
A young man of 17 years old runs away from an abusive household.
A diehard Nazi Skinhead lets the poor kid sleep in his van.
Then the old grizzled Nazi Skinhead starts filling the kid's ears with hate.

The kid is quite bitter, and the Nazi is being friendly to him.  The kid is extremely likely to adopt the Nazi's beliefs, at this time.

Is this kid a Nazi? He'll probably turn out that way for a bit.
Can this kid be reformed? Absolutely, to some degree.
It will depend on how long the kid resides with the Nazi.  It may be he'll never shake Nazism entirely.
Or it may be that someone will be nice to him that completely changes his world view.

Conversion 101: prey on the weak

[MaxTheFox]

Well, here is a hypothetical:
A young man of 17 years old runs away from an abusive household.
A diehard Nazi Skinhead lets the poor kid sleep in his van.
Then the old grizzled Nazi Skinhead starts filling the kid's ears with hate.

The kid is quite bitter, and the Nazi is being friendly to him.  The kid is extremely likely to adopt the Nazi's beliefs, at this time.

Is this kid a Nazi? He'll probably turn out that way for a bit.
Can this kid be reformed? Absolutely, to some degree.
It will depend on how long the kid resides with the Nazi.  It may be he'll never shake Nazism entirely.
Or it may be that someone will be nice to him that completely changes his world view.

Conversion 101: prey on the weak

Kids and teenagers are the exceptions and I hoped it would have been obvious.

[Strongpoint]

A depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.

Well, then expect random "Nazi" teenagers, which could be productive members of the society, to go depressed, anxious and... go out on a shooting rampage

They would do it anyways. Again, it is completely pointless to try to change a fascist. I don't believe the vast majority of them can get any better. They are trash, they will always remain trash, I want to cause them as much pain and suffering as possible.

Even if we can help 1% to get out of the spiral of hate, it is a worthy effort. And I am talking about actual white supremacist violent skinhead type of people, not random undereducated bigots. And certainly not about people with right political views. (hey, I am a right-center, if we want to use this primitive labeling system.)

Also, wanting to cause pain and suffering to anyone is not a healthy desire. Yes, our emotions can lead us in this direction, but civilized and moral people don't act this way. We don't act like this even when facing serial murderes and child molesters. Yes, some people are so despicable that we must take a cold-hearted decision to remove them from the society in one way or another but anything beyond that is barbarity.

[TD1]

Frankly, in his condemnation of fascists Max is becoming closer and closer to resembling them.

One can only hope that, over time, he will change his mind. 

[MaxTheFox]

A depressed and anxious Nazi is the best Nazi.

Well, then expect random "Nazi" teenagers, which could be productive members of the society, to go depressed, anxious and... go out on a shooting rampage

They would do it anyways. Again, it is completely pointless to try to change a fascist. I don't believe the vast majority of them can get any better. They are trash, they will always remain trash, I want to cause them as much pain and suffering as possible.

Even if we can help 1% to get out of the spiral of hate, it is a worthy effort. And I am talking about actual white supremacist violent skinhead type of people, not random undereducated bigots. And certainly not about people with right political views. (hey, I am a right-center, if we want to use this primitive labeling system.)

Also, wanting to cause pain and suffering to anyone is not a healthy desire. Yes, our emotions can lead us in this direction, but civilized and moral people don't act this way. We don't act like this even when facing serial murderes and child molesters. Yes, some people are so despicable that we must take a cold-hearted decision to remove them from the society in one way or another but anything beyond that is barbarity.

1. No it isn't, if it means the other 99% are allowed to speak freely. Fuck the 1% then. I don't want them to get better, I want them to suffer if it means all other fascists suffer too. They're casualties, nothing more.
2. I am just returning their feelings towards me and people like me. I want them to feel isolated and attacked. And to see them made humble. Guess how much I care about it being unhealthy? I just care about them getting hurt.

Frankly, in his condemnation of fascists Max is becoming closer and closer to resembling them.

One can only hope that, over time, he will change his mind. 

Well first of all I am female, and second, if someone doesn't want me to exist then I don't want to hear them talk. It's simple. I hate them as much as they hate me. I will never change my mind.

I am authleft, of course I will be ruthless towards them. Not being ruthless allows them to spread, and that is the last thing I want. I don't aim to be calm, I don't aim to be nice, but I at least support democracy and rights for minorities, unlike them. I hate it when people draw a false equivalency between me and them just because I hate them to the point of wanting fascism to be outlawed. All it means is that I am not limp-wristed.