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[Starver]

We should return to dial-up BBS, that's the real deal.

A decent BBS (or so I think, even with extreme hindsight) was where I started. It wasn't dial-up, but a campus-wide thing, accessible with any unix account and the knowledge how to log into it (probably still a minority of people not directly in the Computing Department's courses, but I had ins from Physics Dept. account, myself, a login to the CompSoc's machine and later on a full-blown CS account, all linked to the same BBS username... And there were Humanities/Languages/etc people on there too, so it was a nice diverse userbase on the whole, even if it was heavy in the technically-minded).

Semi-simultaneously, I lurked a lot on Usenet (the uni-feed was largely read-only, and for binaries (should one desire them) one had to telnet externally, but there were good humo(u)r newsgroups and technical/scientific revelations to be had if you could spare the time. This was before The Eternal September, when one maybe had to cut down to a few select communities to pay attention to (or maybe more if .moderated versions with a good moderated throttle on everything that was spam or not ham).

Those were the days. It's a pity nostalgia isn't like it used to be, though. It's not that the Internet (or even the rather narrower Web) isn't as exclusive as it once was... let a thousand flowers bloom..!  ...just that the proportion of people who are actually wisely using their ability to say things has drastically hit the floor. That said, I've probably degenerated from ky own lofty ideals too. I've been over-explaining things like this for decades, but I might not have actually been so mired in useless remeniscences quite like this, back then. Ok, so I didn't have much to remenisce about. What even was "the thing" from my pre-networked life? It was well before Pogs, etc. Panini Football Stickers? I didn't even like football, but I seem to remember collecting and swapping them. Everything else was totally uninteresting to my contemporaries, or just would confirm how me and my family were weird.

...anyway, consider this a sign of how bad I'd be on Twitter. Well beyond the 280ish characters, before editing, and my life would be of interest to practically no-one. Though maybe the second point is classed as "fairly typical for Twitter".

[None]

Soooo, your problem is that the porn got nuked. That's the gist of it.

Well it's not my problem. I went to tumblr for its art community. But that art community just poofed away right after the porn was nuked. I saw it happen in real time. Turns out actions have consequences, who knew.

Sooooo, because you were there for the art community, and then the porn disappeared, and then the art community poofed, you're wishing loneliness and policing upon someone else who still enjoys the community for being there for the queer community?

We're back to 'the porn is gone' and the rest is sour grapes.

[MaxTheFox]

Well, I guess Tumblr may actually be a more policed zone than twitter. You must really like to be policed tho, and don't mind loneliness too much.
Edit : Also, wow. I really thought that deal would not go through. I suppose Tumblr may be related to the topic of flourishing social medias crashing and burning extremely fast after a dumb executive decision, after all.

I prefer zones where the far-right gets banned.

If you don't censor bigotry, it just grows even more. No, we aren't censoring it hard enough.

I sometimes think that those who shout the loudest for tolerance are the most intolerant. The problem lies in the distinction between 'tolerance' and 'acceptance,' terms which are erroneously conflated. The process of tolerating something culminates in acceptance of that thing, and ergo anything which is tolerated must be acceptable.

But the terms aren't synonyms. Acceptance requires harmonising something with your personal beliefs. But tolerance is measured in your ability to co-exist with multiple contradictory ideas without attempting control.

If something is accepted, it is because you find it in some way agreeable. If something is tolerated, it is because you are capable of hearing (but not necessarily agreeing with) multiple opinions.

I'm saying this because it's often the 'tolerant' people who argue for censorship of loosely-defined bigotry. But what they really want is to accept things, not tolerate them.

Which isn't to say that some things shouldn't be censored. To name obvious examples - age-appropriate content, incitement to murder/arson/theft, so on. But it is to say that censorship, regardless of whether it's directed towards what many consider bigotry or outright untruth, is not tolerance. And that therefore we should apply censorship with the lightest possible hand, not the heaviest.

I am not all-tolerant because I don't tolerate some people, mostly on political views. I am accepting, not tolerant. So that is irrelevant. Ban the Nazis, ban the antivaxxers, ban the pedo defenders, ban the crypto bros.

[Strik3r]

I prefer zones where the far-right gets banned.

I am not all-tolerant because I don't tolerate some people, mostly on political views. I am accepting, not tolerant. So that is irrelevant. Ban the Nazis, ban the antivaxxers, ban the pedo defenders, ban the crypto bros.

Typical facist, so eager to ban anything that even mildly inconveniences them.

Oh, and as a recommendation, I say here. Bay12 Forums.

The outside sucks. There is nothing of worth there.

Twitter is a constant shitstorm of awful ideas.

Reddit is a stomping ground of emergent hiveminds.

Facebook is an ancient dead wasteland.

Tumblr is a dark blue, lonely abyys, like the others said.

Tiktok is an evergrowing blob of insidious cancer.

And -chans? They are now but a mere imitation of what they once were.

And so on. Just abandon the surface, stay in the fort. Sure, it is rather tight here, and we will have to make do with dice and our imaginations. But it is definitely better than being in a place where nazis and antivaxxers roam free.

And don't forget Discord, a sewer system inhabited by only creeps and groomers.
As in regards to the Twitter buyout: it's been a great source of laughs seeing the certain people melt down in real time. I really don't think twitter is going to change a whole lot in the hands of Musk, but the salt harvest has been phenomenal thus far. Keep coping and seething, i say to them.

[voliol]

I prefer zones where the far-right gets banned.

I am not all-tolerant because I don't tolerate some people, mostly on political views. I am accepting, not tolerant. So that is irrelevant. Ban the Nazis, ban the antivaxxers, ban the pedo defenders, ban the crypto bros.

Typical facist, so eager to ban anything that even mildly inconveniences them.

Keep it real, Strik3r. Max might be leaning authoritarian at times, and the ins and out of that can be discussed, but she is not a fash. You know that is not true. (Unless you were being jokingly sarcastic, in which case it passed me by entirely).

Tumblr is a deep, lonely, lawless abyss, and it is lovely for it. Sure, there are bonkers people out there, but you won’t find them unless you go out of your way to. Or maybe the bonkers people who are also quarrelsome enough to find you went to twitter and are now coming back, what do I know?

[King Zultan]

Who needs social media anyway, it all seems like a waste of time.

[MaxTheFox]

I am a fascist for wanting actual fascists banned? lmfao. Ignoring the racists only allows them to fester. """freeze peach""" isn't and shouldn't be a thing online anyways.

Discord... it depends on the server. I like it overall but I stay out of certain places. Most of my friends are on Discord and also that's how I talk about games I like.

[Cathar]

Sooooo, because you were there for the art community, and then the porn disappeared, and then the art community poofed, you're wishing loneliness and policing upon someone else who still enjoys the community for being there for the queer community?

We're back to 'the porn is gone' and the rest is sour grapes.

I think you misread me, with or without purpouse. As for the sour grapes, really no. People I followed on tumblr are still on other social medias. If you are happy with that dead social media, all the power to you, I'm very glad it worked for you !

Typical facist, so eager to ban anything that even mildly inconveniences them.

I won't call them fascists, but they are counterproductive. Robust political debate is absolutely necessary, especially now.
Where I am, I don't have the luxury of being able to "ban" the actual fascists outside of my house. If we don't win the political debate on the public square, if we don't turn to reason people who can be turned, France becomes a fascist state in five years.

People who want to stamp out political discussion in the public square are extremely misguided, even if their intentions are good. Bay12 may not be the place to have that discussion, but Twitter defintively is. I'm waiting to see what happens, because I don't trust Musk as long as I can throw him and his position changes according to the phases of the moon.

Taking any decision now is very premature.

[MaxTheFox]

Funny of you to think that Nazis can change their mind very often, especially online. They can generally never be turned. The only solution is to silence them.

[Starver]

I'm not going to make any serious opinion on this exact issue[1], but it did make me imagine the following snippet of something otherwise apropos of nothing:

...and then they came for the Fascists,
But I said nothing because I was not a Fascist.

[1] Ok, well let's just say that I can tolerate pretty much anything but intolerance, and leave it at that old clich้.

[Cathar]

Funny of you to think that Nazis can change their mind very often, especially online. They can generally never be turned. The only solution is to silence them.

Nazis and people who are dead set in their ideas cannot be turned, but some people can. Actually, most people can. Political battle always happen in the swamp, and the swamp is full of people with legitimate grievances who go ignored and picked up by the far right, only for them to be instrumentalized later.

You see, the crux of the problem is not the nazis. The crux of the problem is the fact they go uncontested when they tackle people's issues.
At some point, you need to enter in spheres they control and try to explain to people that vaccines are not a plan of the illuminati, that EU standards are a tool used by the industry and not a way to exert control over their lives, etc. It's a thankless job, but it has a tangible effect, and recquire a shared space with the enemy.

You don't debate to turn Mark Grenon, you debate to turn his hundreds of dupes before they inject themselves bleach.

[Robsoie]

If you're going to discuss with a racist, extremist, communist, and all other manner of ...-ist with some level of hatred in your heart, you're never going to change the ..-ist heart obviously, you're just going to confirm him into is own ...-ism.
And add that to the internet lacking several ingredients from human social interactions like presence, aura, charisma, intent, tone, etc... that's just going to end into yet another internet cesspool.

Of course, you'll just pat yourself in the back for being the one that is right and having won some kind of mystical internet points, but your interlocutor will do the same on his side, leading to nothing changing, or at least not for the better.

You geniunely want to help change heart, you'll need to involve yourself like this guy that talked and befriended genuinely some KKK members , convincing them of the error of their ways :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis

Would have never worked over the internet, because for this to work on the internet you will need the ...-ist to already wanting to change, that's why i guess "deradicalization"-focused social media may have some positive result, because the guy deciding to join in them already may be willing to better himself.
But changing hearts on twitter ? 4chan ? please be serious ...

[MaxTheFox]

Funny of you to think that Nazis can change their mind very often, especially online. They can generally never be turned. The only solution is to silence them.

Nazis and people who are dead set in their ideas cannot be turned, but some people can. Actually, most people can. Political battle always happen in the swamp, and the swamp is full of people with legitimate grievances who go ignored and picked up by the far right, only for them to be instrumentalized later.

You see, the crux of the problem is not the nazis. The crux of the problem is the fact they go uncontested when they tackle people's issues.
At some point, you need to enter in spheres they control and try to explain to people that vaccines are not a plan of the illuminati, that EU standards are a tool used by the industry and not a way to exert control over their lives, etc. It's a thankless job, but it has a tangible effect, and recquire a shared space with the enemy.

You don't debate to turn Mark Grenon, you debate to turn his hundreds of dupes before they inject themselves bleach.

I don't believe those dupes are possible to turn back to sanity via online debate. See what Robsoie said: it's too impersonal. It would be better to convert them, but as that is basically impossible, it's more effective to drive them into echo chambers and away from the public eye. Let them fester in 8chan.

[Cathar]

But changing hearts on twitter ? 4chan ? please be serious ...

I've been on 4chan for a long, long time. And yes, I'm perfectly serious. You can't turn everyone, you have to pick your battles, but ground can be gained and people can be lead to think. Also I think you are generalizing peoples in the chans, I met some nice people there.

But here is my counterpoints :

• Every inch of ground you give up is taken by the enemy.
• Understanding where the enemy stands in a recquirement for victory
• The public debate is an ongoing and sustained effort
• Subjecting yourself to different points of views helps you grow as a person

As for turning people with hatred in their heart : I think you underestimate people, by a large margin. Maybe because you haven't been in contact with a lot of extremists, or maybe the extremists you've been in contact have been more extreme than mine. But I've seen people change for the better. Some are just kids, some are misconstruing the nature of their problems, some are just holding the beliefs of their locale community. All of them cannot be turned. Some are actually bags of hate, but they are in the absolute minority.

Allowing you to question your prejudices and your a-priori is one of the functions of free speech, actually.

Edit :

Okay, practical exemple. During the Brexit debate, the question of EU standards was put forth by the brexiteer camp, as an authoritarian top-down, costly and redudant measure by the European Union. That claim was largely uncontested (I think John Oliver made a snarky remark on it at the time, and that was it).

All of it was false, they are actually a democratic process used by the industry to upgrade the quality of their product and to speak the same language across europe, and consumer unions are part of the process of creating standards. Even today, I'm fairly sure the records haven't been set straight in the public opinion.

Now if the proposition is to just systematically abandon the ground and just let everyone live in their own reality, this will happen again and again. We need to confront the bullshit.

[Il Palazzo]

I fully agree with Cathar here. As in most public debates, you're not trying to win over your opponent - your game is to win over the audience.
And I also would support the claim that it can work. I always think back to the global warming here. Ten years ago the local-language internets were swarming with bunk arguments, proliferating like crazy and seeping into real life conversations. But a conscious effort to clear the misinformation was made, conducted almost entirely online by just a handful of people. And it worked. The same old hardcore crackpots still try to post the same old tired bullshit. But these days, by and large, if anyone tries to drop an argument that global warming is a hoax, they get organically booed out of the conversation and given a reading list as a farewell gift. Nobody's got patience for them any more. They've lost the audience. Not because they were banned from talking, but because their arguments have been exposed as bunk in the public eye.