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[Strongpoint]

This is exactly the same thing the SOVIETS did in WWII. Grabbed anyone they didn't like and shipped them off to gulags out in the middle of nowhere in Siberia. Many of them didn't return, those that did often didn't want to talk about it.

The Soviets were worse than the Nazis, no doubt about it. And Putin is just trying to make a new Soviet Union, evils and all.

And it is happening again because for some reason in 1991 the West went - "Yay, love, peace, Russia is our new democratic friend!"

Instead of - "Ok guys, now you handle all those guys who committed crimes against humanity in WW2 to an international court and we don't care they are old.  While we are at it, handle the guys who are responsible for illegal invasions in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Oh, and yes, that guys who just recently killed 1M+ civilians in Afghanistan should go to. If no, Cold War continues. Have fun winning it now, when USSR had collapsed and your economy is in ruins."

At the very least, in 1994 after the Chechen War started, the West should have gone for "Oh, you are still monsters. What a surprise" instead of pretending that nothing happened.

_________

One of my greatest fears is that Putin will be removed from power, some other somewhat more guy will come in his place and we'll get 1991 again.

[Lord Shonus]

Trying to do any of that would have produced one of three results. First, the leadership of the Soviet Union might have decided to roll the dice on actual war instead of breaking up - because that would be the only possible chance of any kind of survival. The second possibility would be one that nearly happened anyway - a full-blown civil war in a country with thousands of nuclear warheads. The third would be them trying to double down on the fortress mentality, keeping everything -including Ukraine and the Baltics- until everybody starved. All of which would be horrible, horrible options for everybody and resulted in a death toll that would dwarf both World Wars combined. Aiding the breakup and trying to transistion the post-Soviet states to healthy democracies was quite literally the only option that wasn't utterly insane.The plan didn't fail because it was a bad idea, it failed because the institutional rot was far worse than Western observers realized, and more importantly because the American in charge of distributing the aid monies conspired with oligarchs to steal said aid monies.

[King Zultan]

If I remember right there was a US general that wanted to go after the Soviets at the end of WWII, which probably was the best time to go after them.

[MaxTheFox]

Worse than the Nazis. My sides.

I actually like you as a person, MM, but that's a shit take. Under Stalin, sure there's a valid point to be made there even if I disagree. But the late USSR was nowhere near as bad. In fact they got more right about government than the current fuck in power... still undemocratic but I'd rather be under a left-wing dictatorship than a right-wing one. It was more equal at least. The repressions slowed heavily after Stalin's death.

[scriver]

This is exactly the same thing the SOVIETS did in WWII. Grabbed anyone they didn't like and shipped them off to gulags out in the middle of nowhere in Siberia. Many of them didn't return, those that did often didn't want to talk about it.

The Soviets were worse than the Nazis, no doubt about it. And Putin is just trying to make a new Soviet Union, evils and all.

Fun fact: There's a Swedish minority in Ukraine because of soviet relocation policies. They're the remnants of the "Estonian Swedes" who the soviets broke up and destroyed.

[Strongpoint]

Trying to do any of that would have produced one of three results. First, the leadership of the Soviet Union might have decided to roll the dice on actual war instead of breaking up

Note that I said 1991, what policies should have been after USSR had collapsed not before.

[Random_Dragon]

We were all denied the blursed timeline where Gorby's reforms somehow saved the Union instead of helping its collapse along...

[Lord Shonus]

That makes little difference. Willingness to let the Soviet enpire fall was predicated on the West taking those actions, and they were already under way when the wall fell in 89

If I remember right there was a US general that wanted to go after the Soviets at the end of WWII, which probably was the best time to go after them.

There were many war plans for fighting the Soviets immediately after WWII ended. The general attitude toward them can be summed up in the code name of the most famous one - UNTHINKABLE.

Preparing for renewed war was only good sense, but nobody sane thought it was a good idea. The nuclear monopoly would only have helped so much, as A-bombs couldn't be built very fast. Even conventional strategic bombing would be difficult, because the key Soviet production was buried deep and Soviet air defenses were intact. Most importantly, Soviet ground forces were probably stronger -a lot stronger- than the immediately available forces in Europe. Even if you could maintain American support for the new war, winning it would nit be easy. The war plans were prepared primarily in the event Stalin decided to strike while the iron was hot.

The Soviets did, in fact, have such plans. They were never executed because the Allies had an overwhelming advantage in strategic strike, including atomic weapons, and no ground force advantage could knock out the United States, which was still far short of maximum war production and essentially invulnerable to Soviet attack. Their war plans were prepared primarily in case Truman or Churchill decided to strike while the iron was hot.

[MaxTheFox]

We were all denied the blursed timeline where Gorby's reforms somehow saved the Union instead of helping its collapse along...

😳

[jipehog]

On a tangent to current events CaspianReport: The Middle Corridor to revolutionize Europe and Asia
Yet another thing that strengthen my assessment that no matter what the outcome in Ukraine strategically Russia already lost.

Meanwhile things aren't promising to them on tactical level as well: Wagner Chief Admits it May Not Take Bakhmut Until April.

[Strongpoint]

A Russian marine who fought in Vuhledar told the Russian media outlet 7x7, which is based in the Komi region of Russia, that those who survived the battle were considered deserters. The marine, whose identity the news outlet did not disclose, citing the need to protect his safety, said he was part of the third company of the 155th brigade. After the failed assault, he said, only eight soldiers from his company were left alive.

Ah, surviving a battle = being a deserter. Russian military traditions are maintained

[anewaname]

Aiding the USSR breakup failed because the western governments allowed their citizens to commit actions in the USSR that would have been illegal in their own countries.

It wasn't one westerner who conspired to steal monies, it was many. They used networks of businesses and lawyers with the goal of personal profit, not with the goal of creating healthy democracies.

If this war ends, the exploitation of their natural resources and the international sale of those resources has to be transparent enough to prevent another rise-to-power of an elite that suppresses their own population on behalf of non-Ukrainian business partners.

[jipehog]

I suspect that securing its vast nuclear arsenal would be of higher priority

[Red Diamond]

(removed)

[Superdorf]

27 The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”

29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

God first, local authorities second
That's all I have time to say right now