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[hector13]

… is your line of thinking here that because Zelensky is Jewish he hates Russia(ns?), and that as a consequence of that he’s killing his own people to make Russia(ns?) look bad?

‘cause I’m not really sure what the relevance is to Russia’s current invasion of Ukraine of your “research” of geopolitics from hundreds of years ago.

It’s sad to see someone who appears to be so intelligent be unable to look beyond their own biases, engaging in whataboutism regarding Russias current actions, and blaming Ukraine for what amounts to a Ukrainian genocide by the Russian state.

I suppose Ukraine is engaging in missile strikes on its own civilian infrastructure to make NATO sad enough to give them more and better materiel in order to… I dunno, become a military superpower in the region? Kill more Russians? I don’t drink the Kool Aid, so I can’t think of a reasonable conclusion for such a ridiculous base.

[Strongpoint]

WTH I just read? It is not even wrong. It is some absurd nonsense. Can anyone translate for me the following part

Or are you seriously contending that the guys holed up in Mariupol were really Russians? That Russia destroyed their own in order to conceal the truth, to, um, as you say, fool the gullible? But weren't those "Russians" part of the same group who liberated Bucha after Russia pulled out? So it's Russians all the way down? Sneaky bastards, those Russians.

What does it mean? Like seriously

I've been trying to understand the deep-seated hatred that Galicia has of Russians.

What a deep "knowledge" of History...

I suggest starting from reading this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_Russophilia - Galician Ukrainians viewed Russia as a lesser evil compared to Poles\Austrians for centuries until they actually became part of Russia

  But I understood that if not loved, at least she was appreciated for displacing the Ottoman Empire from Crimea and the south of Ukraine. Is this not the case? Were the people there resentful that they were no longer ruled by Muslims?

More deep knowledge of the History of Ukraine
No Ukrainian was ever ruled by Ottoman Empire (excluding kidnapped slaves). Crimea was populated by Crimean Tatars, Turkic people. And their country was not a part of the Ottoman Empire, they were merely their vassals. And Southern Ukraine was a rather lawless frontier with some Muslim and Cossacks outposts. When these territories became conquered by Russian Empire, settlers moved in. Mostly Ukrainian settlers



What is the most important - History is fucking irrelevant when there is an ongoing genocide attempt

[Il Palazzo]

No Ukrainian was ever ruled by Ottoman Empire (excluding kidnapped slaves). Crimea was populated by Crimean Tatars, Turkic people. And their country was not a part of the Ottoman Empire, they were merely their vassals.

Bessariabia and the southern Crimean ports around Kaffa used to be directly under Ottoman rule. Otherwise, yeah, good drugs.

[Thorfinn]

Why the distinction between "vassal state" and being a part of the empire? Is the difference important?

Hector13, I wasn't thinking of Zelensky, nor did I know he is Jewish. Or that he is evidently from Galicia, or it would be a complete non sequitur. I had been reading authorized biographies of Leo Strauss, among others, and while he was not from the region, they all emphasized the influence people from there had on him. Which is what had me going through the stacks looking at journals, letters, diaries, etc.

Strongpoint, bear with me, please. What my state-controlled media said early on was that among the first into Bucha were elements of Azov and other irregulars. Before the invasion, they had linked Azovs to atrocities in Donetsk. Russia blamed the atrocities in Bucha on Azovs, which was "impossible" because the Azovs were based about 15 miles away, near Kiev. I don't know about you, but 20 miles is not that far if Russia really had already pulled out. I go over twice that distance to church every Sunday morning. In the media blackout we've had since, a lot of this has vanished. Not rebutted, just vanished. Are you saying this was all false? That, for example,  they are not ultranationalists, and any implication they might have been involved in civilian attacks prior to the invasion are pure fantasy?

Wasn't it largely the Azovs that were holed up in the steel plant? That's what my state media said. Our state department said that the Azovs were an irregular paramilitary, and were responsible for the shelling between late 2014 and early 2022. That is why we could not supply them with arms. But if, as Lord Shonus maintains, the Azovs were really Russians, why would the Ukrainian government go along with it? And if they were really Russians, why would the Russians have gone to all the effort and expense to blast them out of Azovstal? Something is not adding up.

History is fucking irrelevant when there is an ongoing genocide attempt

Depends on the purpose. I'm completely uninterested in how history ties in with the current spiciness. There's enough conflicting information, even on the same side, that I'll just sit this one out. What I was really interested in is understanding to what extent Galicia might have influenced the similarities between the actions/views of Bandera and neo-conservatism, as there's more than a little similarity in their fascism-lite.

[Strongpoint]

Strongpoint, bear with me, please. What my state-controlled media said early on was that among the first into Bucha were elements of Azov and other irregulars. Before the invasion, they had linked Azovs to atrocities in Donetsk. Russia blamed the atrocities in Bucha on Azovs, which was "impossible" because the Azovs were based about 15 miles away, near Kiev. I don't know about you, but 20 miles is not that far if Russia really had already pulled out. I go over twice that distance to church every Sunday morning. In the media blackout we've had since, a lot of this has vanished. Not rebutted, just vanished. Are you saying this was all false? That, for example,  they are not ultranationalists, and any implication they might have been involved in civilian attacks prior to the invasion are pure fantasy?

Wasn't it largely the Azovs that were holed up in the steel plant? That's what my state media said. Our state department said that the Azovs were an irregular paramilitary, and were responsible for the shelling between late 2014 and early 2022. That is why we could not supply them with arms. But if, as Lord Shonus maintains, the Azovs were really Russians, why would the Ukrainian government go along with it? And if they were really Russians, why would the Russians have gone to all the effort and expense to blast them out of Azovstal? Something is not adding up.

It is amazing how Azov is blown out of proportion... Gives some perspective about how propaganda works. What country you are from, BTW?

Lets start slowly. Azov is one small unit in Ukrainian military. It started as a paramilitary but consequently was absorbed in the armed forces and by the 2022 it was just a military unit with an unusually high concentration of guys with (far) right political views.

Azov was nearwhere close to Bucha. Bucha is one of the many towns in which Russian armed forces killed Ukrainian civilians in masse for the crime of being Ukrainians. It is just the most famous becaus it was the first.

Mariupol is... was a rather large city with around 50% ethnic Russians, was surrounded by Russian forces and pounded by everything they had destroying hundreds of residential buildings. No one knows how many civilians were killed, estimates are tens of thousands. Azov was one of the units defending the city but it is irrelevant.

You are also very confused about ethnicity...

the Azovs were really Russians, why would the Ukrainian government go along with it

Many members of Azov are Russians. Many soldiers of Ukrainian army are Ethnic Russians. 17% of the Ukrainian population are ethnic Russians*. And why would Ukrainian government care? Because you believe in Russian fairytailes about nazism and Russians being persecuted? Well, it is an outright lie. We elected a Russian-speaking Jew as our President.

* Many of them won't self-identify as Russians ever again. One of many geopolitical "successes" of Putin

[Il Palazzo]

Azov was nearwhere close to Bucha. Bucha is one of the many towns in which Russian armed forces killed Ukrainian civilians in masse for the crime of being Ukrainians. It is just the most famous becaus it was the first.

There is the Azov regiment, and then there is the Azov Kyiv TDF*, which fought near Bucha in March.

In the media blackout we've had since, a lot of this has vanished. Not rebutted, just vanished.

Vanished how? Like, not on the front pages?
https://voxukraine.org/en/fake-russian-military-is-not-involved-in-the-mass-killings-of-civilians-in-bucha

* https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion

[Thorfinn]

It is amazing how Azov is blown out of proportion... Gives some perspective about how propaganda works. What country you are from, BTW?

The US.

Lets start slowly. Azov is one small unit in Ukrainian military. It started as a paramilitary but consequently was absorbed in the armed forces and by the 2022 it was just a military unit with an unusually high concentration of guys with (far) right political views.

OK, so far so good. What mainstream media said back before the invasion is that it was somewhere between 5k and 10k in troop strength.

Azov was nearwhere close to Bucha. Bucha is one of the many towns in which Russian armed forces killed Ukrainian civilians in masse for the crime of being Ukrainians. It is just the most famous becaus it was the first.

And now we are to the point where there is a massive divergence. For example, in the New York Times ( https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/04/02/world/ukraine-russia-war#scenes-of-desperation-and-death-as-the-russians-retreat-from-suburbs-outside-kyiv ) there are all kinds of references to the Azovs being there.

"Soldiers from the Azov battalion walked through the remnants of a Russian military convoy in the recently liberated town of Bucha on Saturday, just outside the capital after the Russians withdrew."

"Residents of the recently liberated town of Bucha reach for food being distributed by Ukrainian soldiers with the Azov battalion on Saturday."

""According to our information, they are running away from all areas around Kyiv,” said Sgt. Ihor Zaichuk, the commander of the 1st company of the 2nd Azov battalion in the Ukrainian army, which fought in Bucha."

There are 19 occurrences of the word "Azov" in the story. And it agrees with other news stories we were getting at the time. Do you see why this is such a cluster?

You are saying, then, that Sgt. Ihor Zaichuk was a figment of the imagination of the New York Times reporter in Bucha?

Mariupol is... was a rather large city with around 50% ethnic Russians, was surrounded by Russian forces and pounded by everything they had destroying hundreds of residential buildings. No one knows how many civilians were killed, estimates are tens of thousands. Azov was one of the units defending the city but it is irrelevant.

According to the reports I read at the time, the Russians were deliberately targeting Azovstal, because that was where the Azovs were bunkered, up to seven stories underground, IIRC.

Anyway, in my country's media they were careful to explain that, for example, the missile that was evidently targeting the rail station in Mariupol was actually launched from Ukrainian territory, and the engine bore a serial number known to be part of the Ukrainian arsenal. That is not true, to the best of your knowledge?

Similarly, a couple months back, my media reported that Zelensky blamed a missile that landed in Poland on Russia, and it later turned out that pretty much all international observers agreed it was of Ukrainian origin. Not so?

You are also very confused about ethnicity...

Many members of Azov are Russians. Many soldiers of Ukrainian army are Ethnic Russians. 17% of the Ukrainian population are ethnic Russians*. And why would Ukrainian government care? Because you believe in Russian fairytailes about nazism and Russians being persecuted? Well, it is an outright lie. We elected a Russian-speaking Jew as our President.

No, I got that. I just didn't express it very well. Mikhail (I'm probably botching the spelling), the guy who used to go to our church, was always careful to distinguish between ethnic Russians and Russians by nationality. I don't remember the word he used for it, but that was the idea.

[Lord Shonus]

Anyway, in my country's media they were careful to explain that, for example, the missile that was evidently targeting the rail station in Mariupol was actually launched from Ukrainian territory, and the engine bore a serial number known to be part of the Ukrainian arsenal. That is not true, to the best of your knowledge?

Similarly, a couple months back, my media reported that Zelensky blamed a missile that landed in Poland on Russia, and it later turned out that pretty much all international observers agreed it was of Ukrainian origin. Not so?

You're simply wrong here. There were no concrete claims about the missile that impacted in Poland early on - statements that it was fundamentally Russia's fault (which is true), but most of the "Russian Missile his Poland" was media talking heads and internet people going wild with speculation. Zelensky's first solid statement (beyond a very brief comment in a nightly address right after it happened) was  "I don’t know what happened. We don’t know for sure. The world does not know. But I am sure that there was a Russian missile, I am sure that we fired from air defense systems" - every word of which is completely true. There's a reason that the AP reporter who initially spread the story no longer works for the Associated Press - it was a media fuckup.

As for the rail station attack, the only claims that it was a Ukrainin missile are prefaced with "Russia denies responsibility, claiming that...". Reporting Russia's propaganda claims is not an endorsement of them, it is newsworthy to know what statements are being made even when you absolutely know they are lying through their teeth. The missile used was a SS-21 Scarab-B (9K79 Tochka-U), which is used by both Russia and Ukraine - it was a standard weapon of the Soviet armed forces, inherited in large numbers by the post-Soviet states. Recovery of the missile's serial number was instrumental in proving that it was NOT a Ukrainian weapon.

[Starver]

Russia blamed the atrocities in Bucha on Azovs, which was "impossible" because the Azovs were based about 15 miles away, near Kiev. I don't know about you, but 20 miles is not that far if Russia really had already pulled out.

There are surveillance photos taken after the invasion of the area, but before the Russians[1] actually skidaddled out of the zone, which show features that correlate well with bodies (many showing signs of torture and summary execution, not other collateral combat damage like schrapnell) that were recorded by the world's media as (or even before) the home forces re-entered the recently vacated area.

The necessary logistics to maintain the 'lie' that Russian forces were in fact the guilty ones are beyond credibility. At the very least, we can say that the Russian occupiers have had to have no qualms walking around, for weeks, amongst bodies of the local residents, and post-Bucha 'clean-ups' (mass graves, mobile crematoria) may have been in response to this - either just basic sanitary efforts or even trying to hide the atrocities from all future investigation. Evidence and testimony of torture-prisons (and worse) still is pretty clear, especially where the rapid retreats happened.

Do I think there were counter-reprisals by (say) outraged local residents upset about collaboration? Probably. But not as general policy of the military units, and it while the 'Russians' were in control I cannot see any way that hundreds of extrajudicial killings, that they did not commit, were allowed to accumulate and fester on the streets.


War is always messy, but you're spouting the wrong propaganda. Whether or not you actually belief your guff.


[1] ...or other subnational group, perhaps. I understand the main occupiers came from a unit in the Far Eastern Command.

[Thorfinn]

Recovery of the missile's serial number was instrumental in proving that it was NOT a Ukrainian weapon.

Source? In the States, the reports I read at the time had intel confirmation of the flight path being from where there were Ukrainian forces and no known Russian forces, plus the serial served as corroboration. And, of course, the engine itself was on the ground right where it would be expected if launched from Ukrainian-held territory.

Occam's Razor...

[EDIT]
starver, I don't know. There have been declassified spy satellite photos where you can read license plates from orbit. Drones have crystal clear images that are used to identify faces in a crowd. If that were true, why wouldn't the US release such a photo? It's not like they've been all kissy-face with Russia. All we get is assurances that such photos exist, but never the actual photos.

After COVIDiocy and now Twitter Files, I have zero confidence in anything my government says. And I trust them more than I trust any other government.
[/EDIT]

[Lord Shonus]

Recovery of the missile's serial number was instrumental in proving that it was NOT a Ukrainian weapon.

Source? In the States, the reports I read at the time had intel confirmation of the flight path being from where there were Ukrainian forces and no known Russian forces, plus the serial served as corroboration. And, of course, the engine itself was on the ground right where it would be expected if launched from Ukrainian-held territory.

If you're so certain that this is true, why don't you pull up these "confirmation sources" for evidence? Because they don't fucking exist.

For a really big clue - Ukraine doesn't have any big land-attack missiles that Russia doesn't operate. The equipment provided as Western aid is far smaller, is rigorously tracked, and would have caused a major diplomatic incident if they had been used in this way.

[Thorfinn]

For Pete's sake, Lord Shonus, I'm not sure. That's what I've been trying to tell you.

The reason I can't provide links is so far as I can tell, those pages no longer exist. (The NYT article I linked to above appears not to exist in their own page's search. I only found it because I could narrow down where I got the link to one of a half-dozen aggregators, and found a deep link there.) At least some of the articles that I think are pointing to those pages are 404. None of the search engines provides any help at all. Seems the smart money is on that they were eliminated under the rubric of mis/disinformation.

When Winston Smith is busy memory-holing everything, it's a little tough to tell if we've always been at war with EastAsia or not. But based on my own recollection and Twitter Files, I'm pretty sure there's been a lot of memory-holing going on.

[Random_Dragon]

So that's Putin-troll-speak for "I pulled them out of my ass"

[Thorfinn]

F you. Sideways. With a rusty chainsaw.

[Il Palazzo]

TBH hard to treat you as discussing this in good faith, given how you came in guns blazing.