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Author Topic: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support  (Read 131218 times)

Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1515 on: October 13, 2022, 11:53:47 pm »

Yes, and look at how the Russian tanks and aircraft have been doing.

They are doing fine. It is not like we witness many Russian fighter jets spontaneously exploding or Russian tanks being unable to shoot*.

*it is changing now because more and more tanks are pulled out of deep storage
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martinuzz

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1516 on: October 14, 2022, 01:36:32 am »

I keep wondering about the lack of air power used by the Russians. Are their planes really that afraid of the Ukrainian anti-air defenses, are they really poorly maintained? Or is Putin holding back his air force in the case he needs it for WW3?
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hector13

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1517 on: October 14, 2022, 01:51:01 am »

I think they’re just afraid that their own anti-air defenses will shoot them down again.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1518 on: October 14, 2022, 02:44:28 am »

I keep wondering about the lack of air power used by the Russians. Are their planes really that afraid of the Ukrainian anti-air defenses, are they really poorly maintained? Or is Putin holding back his air force in the case he needs it for WW3?

Yes, they are that afraid. Ukrainian air defense is the biggest surprise of the war. We found out that Soviet 1980s era air-defense is still quite deadly when used properly (especially when paired with modern NATO's detection tools).

Also, never in its history, Russia tried a war against a country with an adequate number of SAMs. They don't know how to do it.


BTW, Ukraine claims 268 destroyed Russian jets and it is one of the numbers I don't trust at all. Aircraft losses are highly visible and we would see the majority of those 268 visually confirmed (Oryx confirms 61 Russian combat jets lost... And 47 Ukrainian, our airforce is fighting heroically but in the end, their hardware is just too old)
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1519 on: October 14, 2022, 04:34:16 am »

I keep wondering about the lack of air power used by the Russians. Are their planes really that afraid of the Ukrainian anti-air defenses, are they really poorly maintained? Or is Putin holding back his air force in the case he needs it for WW3?

Yes





Russia's airforce is almost certainly gutted the same way their tank forces are (remember that they were supposed to have thousands of late-model T-72s in storage that turned out to be empty husks), and aircraft are more vulnerable to poor maintenance, have more valuable parts, and are made in much lower numbers.

Russia is demonstrably afraid of Ukranian air defenses. Even MANPADS* have inflicted a terrible cost on Russian fixed-wing aviation (including a number of aircraft that were able to get back to base after being hit, but will very clearly never fly again), and Ukraine's real SAMs have proven to be quite vicious (which will become even more true now that the first real Western SAM systems (based on the AIM-120 AMRAAM) are starting to arrive, which will vastly improve the ammunition supply) even if they've done more work shooting down terror missiles than planes. Russia has refused to operate heavy bombers in any capacity other than long-range missile yeeters, and most of the tactical air we've seen was flying extremely low to avoid attack (which is what made them vulnerable to MANPADS in the first place.

A fair portion of Russia's air forces are still stationed in Russia itself, in the increasingly laughable hope that they can stand against a NATO assault, and less absurdly to fend off any further Ukrainan air attacks.

BTW, Ukraine claims 268 destroyed Russian jets and it is one of the numbers I don't trust at all. Aircraft losses are highly visible and we would see the majority of those 268 visually confirmed (Oryx confirms 61 Russian combat jets lost... And 47 Ukrainian, our airforce is fighting heroically but in the end, their hardware is just too old)

Is the claim you're mentioning referring to aircraft destroyed or aircraft shot down. Ukraine has launched a number of airfield deep strikes that almost certainly destroyed planes on the ground (including, possibly, as much as 20% of Russia's operational Tu-22M Backfire bombers), and those aren't in the Oryx data. Oryx data also wouldn't include the several strike craft that ate a MANPAD and flew home but were obviously a total loss.


*MANPAD = MAN Portable Air Defense - Stinger, Starstreak, Igla. An anti-aircraft missile carried by one soldier and fired like a bazooka.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 04:38:40 am by Lord Shonus »
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King Zultan

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1520 on: October 14, 2022, 04:36:35 am »

So since Russia is probably afraid of potentially being invaded are they gonna nuke themselves and say that Ukrainian terrorist did it?   
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Magmacube_tr

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1521 on: October 14, 2022, 05:50:05 am »

So since Russia is probably afraid of potentially being invaded are they gonna nuke themselves and say that Ukrainian terrorist did it?

lol

They might as well. This entire situation is getting more and more ridiculous by the day.
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Starver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1522 on: October 14, 2022, 08:09:21 am »

Of the various scenarios that I'm considering, that isn't even my least likely.

(c.f. my last reply to Max, at least in part inspired by that possibility. Luckily, Max isn't in one of the more prime spots for a bit of creative intentional self-destruction to that end, more likely only somewhere that an unintentional accident would happen.)

Might need an as-yet distant level of desperation to put into action, but if they haven't a plan for it being kept in reserve (by a "think the unthinkable" strategic department, as with any other nation with such possibilities, identifying places just strategic enough to be imaginable, but not actually self-crippling to some arbitrary extent) then I'd be surprised. But it could just as easily be an unplanned thing, or an accident, or true disaffection. Probably far more so than a "false-false-flag" clever plot by Ukraine
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Robsoie

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1523 on: October 14, 2022, 10:44:59 am »

https://news.yahoo.com/macron-criticized-home-saying-france-102800802.html
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/macron-rules-out-nuclear-response-if-russia-nukes-ukraine-could-embolden-putin/ar-AA12VgIj
The concept of nuclear detterence can only work if the other guy can't be certain you're not going to nuke them if they start shooting nuclear missiles.
But telling Russia that they'll do nothing if Russia nukes Ukraine, that's some big level of irresponsibility,
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1524 on: October 14, 2022, 10:52:28 am »

Yeah, no one expected hearing Macron saying "We'll nuke Russia if..." but saying nothing would be preferrable.

____________

Once again, there are rumors about Belarus joining the war SOON (tm). I think it is the same deal as always - way to keep some Ukrainian troops on the border but I wouldn't say that it is impossible considering how desperate Russia is.
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hector13

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1525 on: October 14, 2022, 10:57:25 am »

France doesn’t have that many nukes - a few hundred compared to the many thousand of Russia and the US - so it’s not that big a deal.

If Biden said something like that, it would be a problem, as they’re the only country on par with Russia with nuclear weapons in terms of numbers.
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Robsoie

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1526 on: October 14, 2022, 11:13:24 am »

Apparently they have +/- deployed 280 nukes :
https://www.sipri.org/media/press-release/2020/nuclear-weapon-modernization-continues-outlook-arms-control-bleak-new-sipri-yearbook-out-now

After that the importance is what kind of warhead comes with it, you can compare the various nuke yield there to see in comparison to the one used by americans at Hiroshima and Nagasaki :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield
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hector13

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1527 on: October 14, 2022, 11:18:25 am »

Yeah, and the US and Russia have thousands of warheads each, pushing 6k if I recall correctly, with between 1/6 and 1/3 of them deployed. France is nothing in comparison.

MAD is just that. Wishing for it is the same.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1528 on: October 14, 2022, 11:27:08 am »

France's "Force of Last Resort" was never intended primarily for MAD. They built it to prove they were a big-boy power like the US and Britain, and to ensure that no other nation could do what the Germans tried to do in 1914 and successfully did in 1940. Their doctrine is "If you send an armored column at Paris and we fail to stop it with tanks, we will launch a single nuclear weapon as a warning shot. If you send more troops after that, we will launch every nuclear weapon we have at your cities".  It is a deterrent against a conventional invasion of France, and they have always made that crystal clear. All Macron is doing is stating that French nuclear doctrine has not changed.
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Robsoie

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Personal Diary & Mutual Support
« Reply #1529 on: October 14, 2022, 12:05:23 pm »

That's the whole point : you don't say anything, you must let things "vague", that's how it works.
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