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[MaxTheFox]

I’m not discounting the potential positives in armed conflict. I provided evidence that the most likely outcome is the repression will be worse than it was before, and that’s even assuming your side wins. I’ve also provided an example of an extended civil war that started from armed resistance in the comparatively tiny country of Syria, that’s still ongoing, and the regime there is using horrible weapons on the civilian populace there.

You’ve claimed before that Putin will order peaceful protesters. What do you think he’ll do to them if they shoot back? He’s claimed Ukraine is Russia, and the soldiers there are raping and murdering civilians, they’re raping, torturing, and murdering POWs. He’s using illegal weapons against civilians. He has used nerve agents and nuclear agents in enemies of the state like Skripal, Litvinenko, and Navalny.

PPE: you’re too late I saw the post. I’m not the only one not listening. You say I’m discounting the positives, you’re not even thinking about the negatives, the possibilities listed above, and probably more, and worse. Putin’s has nukes ffs. Do you think he would never use them against his own people? I mean, for there too be change, you have to win. I don’t think you know what that even means.

You say you’re willing to take the risk. Are you willing to put at risk every person you’ve ever known? Because that’s what armed resistance against a regime that has been entrenched for two decades plus will do. Every single person in Russia that has an iota of wealth, power, and influence has it thanks to Putin. You don’t get rid of that overnight. Quite frankly I don’t think you ever get rid of that unless you excise them all, and I don’t think complete anarchy from having local, regional, and national government, the entire military command, and the leadership of all law enforcement and security completely destroyed is better than what you have now.

I mean, you’ve been posting openly for at least the last few months about wanting to murder Putin and his cronies. Are you taking precautions? VPNs? Tor? If not, are you at all worried about being disappeared in the night?

Anyway, good luck with the resistance. You’ll need that and a lot more.

1. That is an acceptable risk compared to not succeeding at all, which is what peaceful resistance would lead to.
2. I know. The losses sustained in armed struggle are acceptable, especially if more of them die than us.
3. I do know about the negatives, I just think they are an acceptable risk. Losing is also an acceptable risk, since not struggling means you lose by default because they will simply ignore the people. And of course I know you have to win to change things. That's the point of violence.
4. Yes. Also you are exaggerating the reach he has. Governments have been overthrown and replaced before in other countries, this isn't any different.
5. Yes, and no.
6. Thanks.

You simply haven't provided evidence that peaceful "resistance" will lead to the government falling. Look at Belarus. Look where peaceful "resistance" led them. It won't work, and people like you are part of the problem. You seem to think I don't realize the risk or the negatives. Of course I do. I genuinely feel it is the best course of action in spite of that. You clearly know jack shit about the situation here anyways.

[hector13]

All you’ll say is “oh those succeeded because of the threat of violence” with no evidence, however:

Phillipines

Mongolia

Serbia/Yugoslavia

Georgia

Ukraine

Armenia

People like me aren’t the problem. I’ve shown you ample evidence that violent resistance will make your problems worse in the short-, medium-, and more than likely the long-term, through the academic stuff I’ve linked, and by example of Syria and Libya, Il Palazzo gave the example of the Russia

 I’ve given you ample evidence that peaceful protest works even against authoritarian governments, by example of Tunisia and some of the above, and further academic stuff. All you’ve done is parrot what other people are saying, and say peaceful protest won’t work, citing one example of it not working.

It‘a not my fault you can’t see beyond your bloodlust. I’m not the one wishing death on millions, intended or otherwise

[MaxTheFox]

All you’ll say is “oh those succeeded because of the threat of violence” with no evidence, however:

Phillipines

Mongolia

Serbia/Yugoslavia

Georgia

Ukraine

Armenia

People like me aren’t the problem. I’ve shown you ample evidence that violent resistance will make your problems worse in the short-, medium-, and more than likely the long-term, through the academic stuff I’ve linked, and by example of Syria and Libya, Il Palazzo gave the example of the Russia

 I’ve given you ample evidence that peaceful protest works even against authoritarian governments, by example of Tunisia and some of the above, and further academic stuff. All you’ve done is parrot what other people are saying, and say peaceful protest won’t work, citing one example of it not working.

It‘a not my fault you can’t see beyond your bloodlust. I’m not the one wishing death on millions, intended or otherwise

Yes all of those worked because of the threat of violence. That's simply how authoritarian governments work. You are naive if you think otherwise.

"It‘a" not my fault you can’t see beyond your spinelessness. I’m not the one wishing millions to keep suffering under an authoritarian government, intended or otherwise

[hector13]

What was the point in asking for evidence if you’re just going to dispute it with no evidence?

I’m not asking people to suffer. I have provided evidence that non-violent resistance works, even in authoritarian settings. You refuse to accept this.

You even have the gall to say I’m the one not listening.

Your entire argument has been “authoritarians don’t give a shit” then I give an example of authoritarians giving a shit and then you say “well, this authoritarian doesn’t give a shit” without any evidence to back it up. The examples I gave were people going out to protest peacefully, and people don’t protest because they’re happy do they? They’re angry, and angry people sometimes get violent. That doesn’t t make the protests violent. They’re going out with the intention of letting people know they’re upset and want change, not “tonight I will kill someone, and I’ll keep killing until my demands are met.”

But no, clearly I’m the one arguing in bad faith, providing evidence of my positions and when I get asked for more, and everyone saying “nnnnnnn someone threw a punch or a chair so it was the threat of violence that made that work nnngfhh authoritarians don’t care even though there are loads of examples of them caring uujuuuju my authoritarian isn’t like other authoritarians mmmmmm BELARUS2020BELARUS2020BELARUS2020 eueuurfh“ are on the verge of fucking enlightenment.

[Strongpoint]

If you really want to continue the discussion... Welcome - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180265.0

I gave my answer there to some of the examples presented above.

[MaxTheFox]

What was the point in asking for evidence if you’re just going to dispute it with no evidence?

I’m not asking people to suffer. I have provided evidence that non-violent resistance works, even in authoritarian settings. You refuse to accept this.

You even have the gall to say I’m the one not listening.

Your entire argument has been “authoritarians don’t give a shit” then I give an example of authoritarians giving a shit and then you say “well, this authoritarian doesn’t give a shit” without any evidence to back it up. The examples I gave were people going out to protest peacefully, and people don’t protest because they’re happy do they? They’re angry, and angry people sometimes get violent. That doesn’t t make the protests violent. They’re going out with the intention of letting people know they’re upset and want change, not “tonight I will kill someone, and I’ll keep killing until my demands are met.”

But no, clearly I’m the one arguing in bad faith, providing evidence of my positions and when I get asked for more, and everyone saying “nnnnnnn someone threw a punch or a chair so it was the threat of violence that made that work nnngfhh authoritarians don’t care even though there are loads of examples of them caring uujuuuju my authoritarian isn’t like other authoritarians mmmmmm BELARUS2020BELARUS2020BELARUS2020 eueuurfh“ are on the verge of fucking enlightenment.

1. That is not evidence. Show me evidence that those revolutions had no threat of violence behind them, as that is a ridiculous claim.
2. It was non-violent, and it worked. That I can agree with. But it was tried before, both in Russia and Belarus. Nothing happened. The only logical next step is to start killing them all.
3. The evidence of this authoritarian not giving a shit is previous protests. Which you have ignored.
4. Nice strawman.

It's clear that this is going nowhere, can we stop before we both get slapped by Toady and/or this thread gets locked?

If you really want to continue the discussion... Welcome - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180265.0

I gave my answer there to some of the examples presented above.

Nah I'm done with this person, who clearly simply has no spine and is just being contrarian.

[hector13]

No I’m fucking done with the conversation and every cunt telling me I’m wrong despite the ample evidence that nonviolent resistance can work and gives better outcomes when it does, and violent resistance is the only way forward even though I’ve provided evidence that can fuck things up further too.

Fuck you, you’re the one hiding behind your computer screen doing fuck all, coward. Willing to risk it all aye, my hole.

[MaxTheFox]

No I’m fucking done with the conversation and every cunt telling me I’m wrong despite the ample evidence that nonviolent resistance can work and gives better outcomes when it does, and violent resistance is the only way forward even though I’ve provided evidence that can fuck things up further too.

Fuck you, you’re the one hiding behind your computer screen doing fuck all, coward. Willing to risk it all aye, my hole.

Have a nice day.

[hector13]

You certainly won’t stop me.

[MaxTheFox]

Honestly though I may have gotten a bit too heated and I'm sorry for insulting you. We will never change our minds about this I feel. Genuinely sorry for enraging you. I'm just tired and angry after what happened IRL today.

[Strongpoint]

Meanwhile, Russia attacked Enerhodar with helicopters. Yes, the city under their control which is just near the nuclear plant. They claim that 60 Ukrainian saboteurs crossed the Dnipro river to try to capture the nuclear plant but were eliminated. Of course there are no bodies or other proofs.

Looks like they really don't want IAEA to visit the station.

[Great Order]

If they go ahead anyway, will Russia just straight up shoot them? (While claiming it's Ukraine)

[King Zultan]

Why don't we actually lock the thread because this thing constantly seems to be turning into massive ass arguments and everyone leaves pissed off.

[Starver]

Why don't we actually lock the thread

...if I read OP's post right, because locking for the desired 48 hours won't allow it to be unlocked again (off their own authority) having hopefully cooled the conversation down. Locking permanently won't stop the need for a thread, which could be created anew immediately with no "but there already is one, actually" to make anyone think twice... And could immediately receive all the frustrations just prevented from being posted to the original.

So it's a tricky problem. Without getting site-admin(s) involved, and there are various reasons we just don't want to bother them so "Hey guys(/gals/whatever)! Cool it!" (from the general disinterested parties in such a tennis match of argument, even before OP gets into it) is the kind of level of escalation we want to hope would work beforehand. If earlier and more casual hints aren't taken.

Anyway, <fingers crossed>, maybe it's over, and I somehow held back my own thoughts (nuanced to both ends of the conflict) and won't say anything from now onwards, if I can help it.

massive ass arguments

I notice you didn't try to use any hyphen making it even easier for me...

[MaxTheFox]

massive ass arguments

I notice you didn't try to use any hyphen making it even easier for me...

This argument was indeed ass.