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[Random_Dragon]

Like I said, a low chance of success is better than none. Using those odds as an argument against actually trying to fight fascism is just defeatism, especially if the option you're arguing in favor of has still-lower odds.

[hector13]

In what way is endless civil war a success?

Or are we just defining success as murdering the incumbents and their allies, and caring nothing for what happens after?

[Il Palazzo]

Hey, why these weird Arab examples? Take Russia! Check this out:
Unpopular war. Armed uprising based on grand ideals (and ample Western support, natch). Russians fighting amongst each other. The rebels winning. The rebels proceeding to invade their neighbours within a couple years. The rebels destroying the economy to the point of starvation. The rebels enacting a reign of terror exceeding the previous regime's.
Yes, it's the wonderful Bolshevik revolution. But the Tsar is no more, so it's a success, right? Besides, this time it'll work out better, I'm sure.

[Quarque]

As a Russian, I'm sorry for the crimes my people inflicted on the people of Ukraine. Whenever I talk to an Ukrainian on the internet, I profusely apologize if the subject comes up. I'm really guilty.

I sympathise with the sentiment, but you're no more guilty than any other fellow human being in this mess. I feel sorry for ordinary Russians who don't want this - you're a victim of a horrible police state ruled by thugs.

Wish I had half the courage to start any sort of revolution if I was in your position. To be honest I would probably chicken out and attempt to flee the country.

[hector13]

As a Russian, I'm sorry for the crimes my people inflicted on the people of Ukraine. Whenever I talk to an Ukrainian on the internet, I profusely apologize if the subject comes up. I'm really guilty.

I sympathise with the sentiment, but you're no more guilty than any other fellow human being in this mess. I feel sorry for ordinary Russians who don't want this - you're a victim of a horrible police state ruled by thugs.

Wish I had half the courage to start any sort of revolution if I was in your position. To be honest I would probably chicken out and attempt to flee the country.

Nobody in the thread has the courage to start a revolution either, that’s why they’re in the thread talking about it.

You don’t have to be in a country to actually do anything in the country either. Erdogan blamed a Turkish cleric for the “coup attempt” a few years ago. The Dalai Lama has been exiled for years and he’s still doing good for Tibet.

[Strongpoint]

As a Russian, I'm sorry for the crimes my people inflicted on the people of Ukraine. Whenever I talk to an Ukrainian on the internet, I profusely apologize if the subject comes up. I'm really guilty.

I sometimes wonder what would I do if MY nation would go crazy... If I would be among 10(5? 2? 1?)% of sane ones among fascist hysteria

I won't tell you to not feel guilty, if anything, as a Ukrainian, I would love to see more of this coming from Russians but...

Ask yourself are you of the same nation as them? Perhaps it is time to decide that they are not Russians... or that you are not a Russian. Are they really your people to willingly share the collective guilt? In the end, you are the one who decides who are your people and who are not. What makes you one of them? Mother language? Citizenship? Place of Birth? It is not enough. Nationality is about a person's set of ideas and I doubt that your set is very similar to those people's.

With you being 20 years old, Your personal guilt is minimal. You didn't quite participate in the creation of this political system by action or inaction.

In any case, you have a long hard road ahead. I don't envy you.

[KittyTac]

As a Russian, I'm sorry for the crimes my people inflicted on the people of Ukraine. Whenever I talk to an Ukrainian on the internet, I profusely apologize if the subject comes up. I'm really guilty.

I sometimes wonder what would I do if MY nation would go crazy... If I would be among 10(5? 2? 1?)% of sane ones among fascist hysteria

I won't tell you to not feel guilty, if anything, as a Ukrainian, I would love to see more of this coming from Russians but...

Ask yourself are you of the same nation as them? Perhaps it is time to decide that they are not Russians... or that you are not a Russian. Are they really your people to willingly share the collective guilt? In the end, you are the one who decides who are your people and who are not. What makes you one of them? Mother language? Citizenship? Place of Birth? It is not enough. Nationality is about a person's set of ideas and I doubt that your set is very similar to those people's.

With you being 20 years old, Your personal guilt is minimal. You didn't quite participate in the creation of this political system by action or inaction.

In any case, you have a long hard road ahead. I don't envy you.

See, I like Russian history and culture to an extent. I just really hate the government and a large chunk of the population. And I disagree with your definition of nationality. It's ethnic, not ideological. I could renounce my citizenship and move to Germany and I would still be clearly and irreversibly Russian.

[MaxTheFox]

In what way is endless civil war a success?

Or are we just defining success as murdering the incumbents and their allies, and caring nothing for what happens after?

Look, we have to take the risk, it's better than leaving Putin in power. If only the Russian people realized that.

Hey, why these weird Arab examples? Take Russia! Check this out:
Unpopular war. Armed uprising based on grand ideals (and ample Western support, natch). Russians fighting amongst each other. The rebels winning. The rebels proceeding to invade their neighbours within a couple years. The rebels destroying the economy to the point of starvation. The rebels enacting a reign of terror exceeding the previous regime's.
Yes, it's the wonderful Bolshevik revolution. But the Tsar is no more, so it's a success, right? Besides, this time it'll work out better, I'm sure.

Except the revolution had many democratic elements and was hijacked by the Bolshevik faction. I am a Menshevik demsoc larper. So yes I say try again.

[hector13]

In what way is endless civil war a success?

Or are we just defining success as murdering the incumbents and their allies, and caring nothing for what happens after?

Look, we have to take the risk, it's better than leaving Putin in power. If only the Russian people realized that.

The only thing that’s going to beat Putin in the violence stakes is something worse than Putin. Don’t wish that on yourself.

Hey, why these weird Arab examples? Take Russia! Check this out:
Unpopular war. Armed uprising based on grand ideals (and ample Western support, natch). Russians fighting amongst each other. The rebels winning. The rebels proceeding to invade their neighbours within a couple years. The rebels destroying the economy to the point of starvation. The rebels enacting a reign of terror exceeding the previous regime's.
Yes, it's the wonderful Bolshevik revolution. But the Tsar is no more, so it's a success, right? Besides, this time it'll work out better, I'm sure.

Except the revolution had many democratic elements and was hijacked by the Bolshevik faction. I am a Menshevik demsoc larper. So yes I say try again.

Obviously history could never repeat itself :p

[MaxTheFox]

In what way is endless civil war a success?

Or are we just defining success as murdering the incumbents and their allies, and caring nothing for what happens after?

Look, we have to take the risk, it's better than leaving Putin in power. If only the Russian people realized that.

The only thing that’s going to beat Putin in the violence stakes is something worse than Putin. Don’t wish that on yourself.

Hey, why these weird Arab examples? Take Russia! Check this out:
Unpopular war. Armed uprising based on grand ideals (and ample Western support, natch). Russians fighting amongst each other. The rebels winning. The rebels proceeding to invade their neighbours within a couple years. The rebels destroying the economy to the point of starvation. The rebels enacting a reign of terror exceeding the previous regime's.
Yes, it's the wonderful Bolshevik revolution. But the Tsar is no more, so it's a success, right? Besides, this time it'll work out better, I'm sure.

Except the revolution had many democratic elements and was hijacked by the Bolshevik faction. I am a Menshevik demsoc larper. So yes I say try again.

Obviously history could never repeat itself :p

1. Prove it.
2. It could but I am willing to take risks.

[hector13]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2053168016630837

The central message of this study is clear: though coups against autocrats have sometimes led to democratization, more often they install a new set of autocratic elites and expose citizens to higher levels of repression.

[MaxTheFox]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2053168016630837

The central message of this study is clear: though coups against autocrats have sometimes led to democratization, more often they install a new set of autocratic elites and expose citizens to higher levels of repression.

And there is no way a peaceful revolution will succeed at all. I know a violent one is risky, but I am willing to take said risk. Kill.

Anyways, I'm tired of this conversation.

[hector13]

Prove it.

What do you think a nonviolent rebellion looks like and why would it fail?

Edit: I can only conclude from this you’re not interested in revolution, you’re not interested change, and you’re not interested in making things better. All you want is revenge.

If you embark on the journey to revenge, dig two graves, though in this instance you’d be better just cutting out the middleman: dig one, jump in, and shoot yourself.

[MaxTheFox]

Prove it.

What do you think a nonviolent rebellion looks like and why would it fail?

Edit: I can only conclude from this you’re not interested in revolution, you’re not interested change, and you’re not interested in making things better. All you want is revenge.

If you embark on the journey to revenge, dig two graves, though in this instance you’d be better just cutting out the middleman: dig one, jump in, and shoot yourself.

1. People have explained that before. Peaceful rebellion only works when the government gives a shit. Even Gandhi said peaceful rebellion wouldn't have worked in Nazi Germany.
2. False. I do want change, I just believe the only way to do so in Russia at this point is violence. I'd prefer peace if I believed it was possible. I said this several times and you ignored me. You keep strawmanning me like a little baby who ran out of points to make and keeps ignoring any counterarguments to repeat "it won't work" over and over.

Honestly this discussion radicalized me against pacifism even more, by showing its supporters to have stuck their heads in the sand. I just want to get it over with because you are clearly not arguing in good faith.

[Strongpoint]

Prove it.

What do you think a nonviolent rebellion looks like and why would it fail?

See Belarus 2020 as an example of "peaceful rebellion". Crowds were ignored, leaders were imprisoned and tortured. Nothing changed

Please, please model a peaceful rebellion that removes Putin from power. I am REALLY curious