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[martinuzz]

Believe it or not, I just want an end to the bloodshed.

I'd be content with demilitarization, but it would only be possible if Putin is overthrown from the inside, due to nukes; thus the West must spread anti-government rhetoric on Russian websites to speed that up, incite revolts and anti-police violence, and arm any rebels that crop up.

The only just outcome to this war is Putin facing the wall. Or getting torn apart by a crowd. Or getting guillotined. I wouldn't settle for life imprisonment, only his death can satisfy me.

Also, just doing as she asked.

Sometimes a small bloodbath is nescessary to prevent a much larger bloodbath. As long as the net loss of life is decreased, it is justifiable.

I am open to any suggestion for a Russian revolt that does not involve civil war

[Il Palazzo]

You know none of those people are in your audience, right? Or if they were, they wouldn't wait for >your< approval to start butchering their fellow countrymen? Or that none of us, personally, have any control over these events?

[martinuzz]

Sadly, sites like these. Gaming forums, discord chats and the like are the closest that we, the west can get to 'Russian websites'  as mentioned by Max.
The real Russian websites are too heavily censored.

[Strongpoint]

People of Moscow. Arm yourselves. Kill your police, kill your anti-riot squads, kill your government officials, kill your military that won't join you. Turn Moscow into a Kyiv style guerilla city and bring the rise of a new Russia.

As a guy, who indirectly participated in 2 revolutions, I can say that you don't understand what it takes to revolt against an autocracy. Even the first step of your plan (arming yourself) is damn hard. Weapons don't grow on trees.

I can write essays about the idiocy and immorality of Russian liberal(ish) opposition ("Smart Voting" is the height of stupidity as far as anti-dictatorship resistance goes) and had they acted differently during the last decades then many people would be still alive. Now, they don't have resources...

Also, you want people to jump several levels of escalation. Typical revolutions go this way.

1) Peaceful protests. If those are ignored and\or people are unlawfully arrested
2) Peaceful protests with serious disruption (blocking roads, strikes, even minor vandalism) and peaceful methods of resisting arrests . If the government responds with violence go
3) More protests, violent resistance to unlawful arrest, more serious disruption. If the government responds with tear gas and sticks
4) Time for Molotovs and bricks. And then, if and only if, the government answers with lethal force
5) Arm yourself

Russian opposition never reached 2. Let's let them get there first.

Also, it is unethical to DEMAND from anyone to go and die as a hero.

P.S. calling for violence, for literal terrorism is something that can get you permabanned on this forum. (See the moderation log)

[martinuzz]

I'd be content with demilitarization, but it would only be possible if Putin is overthrown from the inside, due to nukes; thus the West must spread anti-government rhetoric on Russian websites to speed that up, incite revolts and anti-police violence, and arm any rebels that crop up.

The only just outcome to this war is Putin facing the wall. Or getting torn apart by a crowd. Or getting guillotined. I wouldn't settle for life imprisonment, only his death can satisfy me.

I just mirrored her request.

But yeah you're right. Russian opposition never made it to 2)
Russian government made it to 4) though. They have killed opposition and critics.

Also, taking up arms against an oppressive autocrat regime is not terrorism.

[MaxTheFox]

I said preferably not, but I am very aware that ending WW2 (at least, Japan) took 2 nukes.

And yes, it would be best if Russians overthrew Putin and revolted. But you're wrong if you say that's up to the West to incite.
It's up to you (not you, the person, you, the Russian people). You already had more than 40 days since this war started to stand up and stop this madness. We, the West, can't do more to that end than we are already doing. Sadly most attempts are crushed by propaganda and media shutdows.

Putin is destroying your country's future.
There was no one in Europe that was a threat to Russia. NATO was never an existential threat. Everyone was fine doing business with Russia, except some human rights organisations.

And now? Putin has managed to make the Western world see Russia as an existential threat.
What goes around comes around.

People of Moscow. Arm yourselves. Kill your police, kill your anti-riot squads, kill your government officials, kill your military that won't join you. Turn Moscow into a Kyiv style guerilla city and bring the rise of a new Russia.

People of Siberia. Set free and arm your prisoners.

Well for once I agree with Strongpoint. And something I brought up in the old thread is that there's not yet a critical mass of people willing to revolt, even if others want the government to fall but are scared of getting arrested. If there were more protests then I'd protest. I'd violently protest even. None in my region anyways so far, because it's so far from Moscow or St. Pete's so I couldn't do anything anyways.

Western incitement would possibly push that critical mass over the edge. Won't hurt to do it anyways, such lowkey cyberwarfare is basically free.

[martinuzz]

Western incitement would possibly push that critical mass over the edge. Won't hurt to do it anyways, such lowkey cyberwarfare is basically free.

We are already doing that


EDIT: oops I accidentally deleted the rest of this post trying to copy paste the above and pressing save.

I wish we lived in a world where wars could be ended with hugs, flowers and kisses, and authroritorian governments toppled by love.
Sadly, that world does not exist.

[brewer bob]

Agreeing with Strongpoint's views on revolutions.

I'd like to add that it's possible for small groups of insurrectionists to reach points 4 and 5 without a mass movement, but without a large enough popular movement to back them up and support them, they'll eventually loose the support and get crushed (armed left-wing groups like the Red Army Faction as one example).

[Loud Whispers]

Lord how I wish we could get the perspective of the Russian soldiers undertaking this special military operation. There are those soldiers of fortune who loot and rape from Syria to Ukraine; sure. But what of all those Russian patriots who were thrown to certain death without even being told why they were there? I'm reminded of the sinking of the Kursk, where Putin was too busy having a BBQ to give permission to foreign navies to rescue his own submariners after their own torpedoes exploded. It is one thing to be sacrificed for your country, but it is another thing to be sacrificed for no reason because the guy at top simply didn't care. I want to know what those guys think, those who were sent defenceless on an invasion with no food or fuel or objective

[Strongpoint]

OK. I thought those intercepted calls of Russian soldiers talking with their families won't bring anything that would disgust me more than anything I already heard before.

But then... 

"Go on, rape Ukrainian women, just don't tell me. Understand? So that I won't know anything. Yes, I permit it. Use protection" Direct quote from a Russian wife talking to her husband. With giggles between the words.

[EuchreJack]

Well, I think the more heated discussion has ended.  Thanks martinuzz for editing your posts a bit.

[brewer bob]

Quoting from the War in Ukraine thread:

Russia moves military equipment including missile systems towards Finnish border.

___________

A great strategic move, Putin! You absolutely need those to scare Finland away from joining NATO. It is how it works! Also, you absolutely don't need your logistics elsewhere!

Yeah, the support for joining NATO was really low in Finland prior to the war, somewhere around 30%. When the war began, it practically instantly rose to over 50%.

I've been against NATO since my late teens when I began to follow world politics and got involved in grassroots social movements. I still don't think it's a club of particularly nice guys (I'm pointing at you Erdogan), but I have to admit that of two bad choices, not joining NATO seems like a worse thing. I'm still undecided, maybe leaning a bit towards joining. The same sentiment is shared by lots of left-leaning folks, who had a strong stance against NATO before. Even many who consider themselves radical leftists have changed their mind. Strange times, indeed.

Regardless, join or not, what I'd hope is that Finland allies itself more closely with other Baltic countries.

Great work Putin for making joining NATO sound like the sensible thing to do.

[JoshuaFH]

What's so wrong with joining NATO?

[brewer bob]

What's so wrong with joining NATO?

For me? Mainly boils down to not wanting to be in league with human rights violators. Turkey's wars against the Kurds, as one example.

(Edit: I don't mean to say that Finland doesn't have its problems with respecting human rights, like forced sterilization of people wishing to reassign their legal gender, imprisoning conscientious objectors, arms exports to undemocratic countries, violating Sámi political rights, etc.)

[eerr]

-A rant

This is hate speech and rabble rousing, I don't care if it's justified, get it out of here.
you shouldn't organize a rebellion on bay12.