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[EuchreJack]

IMO, Putin is unimportant now. Russian society wants a big victory and if he will try to stop the war without it, then he will be removed from power and the war will continue.

It's best to remember that sort of view is both self-perpetuated by the Russian State, and it is ultimately transitory.
We are also only in the first few months of this War.

With the information control over in Russia, I'm sure Putin could spin whatever sort of victory into a Big Win that nobody can deny without going to Prison.
So it really is "When does Putin's country suffer enough losses in manpower, materials, and cash that Putin doesn't think he can accept any more of them?"

[Strongpoint]

IMO, Putin is unimportant now. Russian society wants a big victory and if he will try to stop the war without it, then he will be removed from power and the war will continue.

It's best to remember that sort of view is both self-perpetuated by the Russian State, and it is ultimately transitory.
We are also only in the first few months of this War.

With the information control over in Russia, I'm sure Putin could spin whatever sort of victory into a Big Win that nobody can deny without going to Prison.
So it really is "When does Putin's country suffer enough losses in manpower, materials, and cash that Putin doesn't think he can accept any more of them?"

I monitor Russian social networks\forums and I can say that the radical part of Russian society is already rather angry. They are not buying "retreat from Kyiv was a tactical maneuver.", they use the best example of Russian swearing when any negotiations with "Nazi" are even proposed, they call Putin and his generals morons and cowards. (Remember, they do believe that their army is super powerful and modern, who to blame if such army can't defeat pathetic Ukraine?)

I think the least they'll accept is 1) Full control over Donbas 2) Annexation of already occupied territories into Crimea (Tavrida) and 3) Ukraine signing a humiliating capitulation with terms like partial demilitarization

Everything less will mean huge dissent among people who actually matter.

[MaxTheFox]

And that is why Ukraine should, at worst, accept status quo. That way there's no way Putin can spin it as a victory.

[martinuzz]

I wonder what would happen if the ultra rich of this world announced they put a 1 billion dollar bounty on Putin's head.
And 100 million for every Duma member or military commander.

[nenjin]

I don't think Russia is going to settle for an independent Ukraine. Whether that's by treaty or being conquered, they're not going to have done all this to walk away with just annexing a few more regions.

[martinuzz]

I'm leaning more and more to the opinion that the only just outcome to this conflict is the complete demilitarization and denazification of Russia. Preferably not, but if need be, with nukes.
They have become a worse threat to humanity than even climate change.

[heydude6]

I wonder what would happen if the ultra rich of this world announced they put a 1 billion dollar bounty on Putin's head.
And 100 million for every Duma member or military commander.

Probably the same thing when the United States put a million dollar bounty on Osama Bin Laden.* Absolutely nothing. Don’t underestimate the ability of despots to protect themselves.

*The bounty was not even for the head of Bin Laden, just for info about where he may be hiding. Even then, nobody would bite.

Preferably not, but if need be, with nukes. They have become a worse threat to humanity than even climate change.

Careful with that talk Martin, Nukes by their very nature are a weapon that cause tons of collateral damage. A single bomb dropped on Moscow would create more civilian casualties than Ukraine has suffered in this entire war. I can’t call the average Russian citizen innocent due to how twisted they are by Putin’s propaganda, but I don’t think the few reasonable Russians remaining would be comfortable with us advocating for the mass slaughter of their people.

This fascism is a worse threat than climate change though.

[Strongpoint]

I'm leaning more and more to the opinion that the only just outcome to this conflict is the complete demilitarization and denazification of Russia. Preferably not, but if need be, with nukes.
They have become a worse threat to humanity than even climate change.

Actually, Russia and climate change have one solution: Humanity must find an alternative to fossil fuels ASAP. As a bonus, it will also give less money to radical Islam, another major problem.

EU has a great opportunity to say "we are at war" and go for wartime level of measures to drastically lower consumption of fossil fuels and develop new technologies

[brewer bob]

Allegedly, Russian forces used a poisonous substance of unknown origin against the Ukrainian military and civilians in Mariupol, which was dropped from an UAV. - https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1513597873593663492

Oh boy it's Aleppo all over again

If this is confirmed, I'm afraid the red line will be re-drawn again. I don't know how much it will take for the Western governments to react to this shit with something else than sanctions, which still aren't enough and work too slow (and don't really hurt those with offshore holdings).

(Edit: quotes from the War in Ukraine thread.)

[Loud Whispers]

If this is confirmed, I'm afraid the red line will be re-drawn again. I don't know how much it will take for the Western governments to react to this shit with something else than sanctions, which still aren't enough and work too slow (and don't really hurt those with offshore holdings).

(Edit: quotes from the War in Ukraine thread.)

I mean, I know Western nations are hesitant to intervene due to nukes, but if Ukraine is subjected to chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, does it make sense to not intervene out of fear weapons that get used will be used if they have already been used?

[MaxTheFox]

I'm leaning more and more to the opinion that the only just outcome to this conflict is the complete demilitarization and denazification of Russia. Preferably not, but if need be, with nukes.
They have become a worse threat to humanity than even climate change.

If you want to use nukes against Russian civilians, then you're as bad or worse than Putin. You can't claim moral superiority over a genocidal dictator if you want to kill millions of civilians, whether brainwashed by propaganda or not. That is a dangerous path to go down.

I'd be content with demilitarization, but it would only be possible if Putin is overthrown from the inside, due to nukes; thus the West must spread anti-government rhetoric on Russian websites to speed that up, incite revolts and anti-police violence, and arm any rebels that crop up.

The only just outcome to this war is Putin facing the wall. Or getting torn apart by a crowd. Or getting guillotined. I wouldn't settle for life imprisonment, only his death can satisfy me.

[Strongpoint]

To be fair, he never said anything about deliberately using nukes against civilians. There are many military targets like enemy ICBM launch sites or ports with nuclear submarines

Saying that, in case of a full nuclear exchange, I prefer to be evaporated

[JoshuaFH]

Let's not entertain the idea, lest we regret it should it become reality.

[martinuzz]

I said preferably not, but I am very aware that ending WW2 (at least, Japan) took 2 nukes.

And yes, it would be best if Russians overthrew Putin and revolted. But you're wrong if you say that's up to the West to incite.
It's up to you (not you, the person, you, the Russian people). You already had more than 40 days since this war started to stand up and stop this madness. We, the West, can't do more to that end than we are already doing. Sadly most attempts are crushed by propaganda and media shutdows.

Putin is destroying your country's future.
There was no one in Europe that was a threat to Russia. NATO was never an existential threat. Everyone was fine doing business with Russia, except some human rights organisations.

And now? Putin has managed to make the Western world see Russia as an existential threat.
What goes around comes around.

People of Moscow. Arm yourselves. Dismantle your police, overwhelm your anti-riot squads, send home your government officials, fight your military that won't join you. Turn Moscow into a Kyiv style guerilla city and bring the rise of a new Russia.

People of Siberia. Set free and arm your prisoners.

[Il Palazzo]

  One thread got closed, but I see you still practice your particular brand of bloodthirsty armchair virtue signalling.