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[Random_Dragon]

You have nothing to lose but your chains, as the saying goes.

I get the feeling that at least some of the people at risk of being press-ganged into Putin's Small Penis Misadventure will decide the odds of surviving the Russian military and police are higher than the odds of surviving the Ukranian army.

[Strongpoint]

Sometime in spring, when Russia retreated from Kyiv and left a lot of their bodies on the ground Ukraine gathered those and offered to deliver them to Russia... Russia never agreed to accept them. So those bodies were kept in refrigerated wagons at a railway station in Kharkiv.

Until tonight... Tonight Russia destroyed those wagons with a precise cruise missile strike.

[Ganondworf]

Until tonight... Tonight Russia destroyed those wagons with a precise cruise missile strike.

I feel like that shouldn't have surprised me, considering all we know of the Russian army and leadership, yet it still did.

I don't know how much more disgusted I can get.

[anewaname]

I mean this as a serious question about an emotional topic...

How does Ukraine get their civilians out of Russia without threatening to invade?

Components of the problem....

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Humans have an emotional response, to defend their young and to defend their tribe/herd. Every nation exploits this and those people "feel good" while their government is defending the tribe and "feel bad" when their government attacking another tribe without justification. These people are always recruited into government and military positions.

Any attempt to threaten Russian soil will allow the propaganda to change from special-operation to defend-mother-russia, resulting in a pre-programmed response from some citizens.

What future would I like to see?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I want to see the Russian government reform itself into a platform based on an ethical and anti-war platform, similar to how Germany and Japan did after WWII, but without the need for massive destruction within Russia.

So yeah, massive upheaval, but possible if it is based on a national pride in the reform itself and little national pride elsewhere.

I made this post a week ago....

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

With the talk about the damaging of civilian infrastructure, I'd like to point at what happened in Europe during WWII. In all areas where there was fighting, there was massive damage to civilian infrastructure.

I'm not condoning or saying it was unintentional, but am saying this is what happens in war. And, I would context it as "the war is the crime and many of the actions taken during the war are the result of ignorance, fear, and anger, which are responses to the insanity of being involved in a war."

Some of the Ukrainians will do things to Russians that they have believe Russians did to Ukrainians. Should these be compared as similar crimes?

In all cases, the Russian government and nation, in whatever form it takes after the war, is fully responsible for the war, even if there is a "new" Russian government that claims the previous one has been destroyed.

EDIT: I had added this quote here because this is all part of the same consideration of "how does this war end without becoming a perpetual or repeating event perpetuated by Russia and/or Ukraine, because if Ukraine is permanently on the defensive then eventually some in Ukraine will take the offensive (note how Israel changed their fighting stance as the nation established itself and there is a narrative of how Israel is being overly aggressive.). I am not accusing, I am pointing at history and saying, "that has happened before..", is it going to happen again?"

From my perspective, the problem rests on a fulcrum where:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Any outcome of this war that does not involve the "new" Russian government taking full responsibility for the war, will result in captured Ukrainian civilians being kept as slaves within Russia.
AND
Any attempt to violate Russian soil will trigger the emotional response to defend-mother-russia, and that means patriotic Russians, who may have partial control of weapons like nukes, might feel overwhelmingly vengeful.

So, "How does Ukraine get their civilians out of Russia without threatening to invade?"

[Great Order]

I lied at the recruitment center about having even worse vision than I do (by saying I didn't see a letter that I saw clear as day) and got "Category D". I won't get conscripted even if there is a full mobilization. Proud of what I did.

If needed (e.g there is a civil war), I can flee through the Kazakh border and figure out what to do next from there.

In the event of a civil war, I'm pretty sure that opens you up to being a refugee. You could cross a pretty good number of borders (i.e. the ones with unguarded bits) in that case if you don't mind spending a good bit of time being processed.

[Starver]

I've been hearing (radio, no easy links) that:
A) People have been served mobilisation papers who are not even in the stated mobilisation cohort,
B) There are semi-reliable mutterings that the 'limited mobilisation' proclamation has a publically-unreleased clause that actually allows up to a million such call-ups.

Meanwhile, large queues of vehicles trying to get to Georgia (one of the no-visa destinations), high volumes once again to Finland (visa required), certain destinations of airline tickets completely sold out (after skyrocketting in price) and variable reactions by the gamut of potential destination countries (from "yeah, you can come... with security checks of course" to just plain refusing all Russians entry).

So I pass on my hopes to those who may be directly affected, and of course if even a percentage point or two of these new-bods end up any good (and motivated, however that may be) in their assigned roles then I'm concerned for those who have to deal with their introduction upon the field of conflict (as well as what they have to do against those serving purely as cannon-fodder).

[Lord Shonus]

There's an official statement out from the North Korean Ministry of Defense that boils down to "We have never exported weapons or ammunition to Russia, and that is not changing", calling it a US smear campaign.

[MorleyDev]

Possible translations include:
* We have a deal but don't wanna say it.
* We had a deal, but China said no.
* We were negotiating a deal but it fell through.

[Il Palazzo]

* truth is overrated, but we never miss the chance to call the US names

[Strongpoint]

But it is rather cute that the accusation of selling shells to Russia is "smearing" even for North Korea.


Iran also denied supplying UAVs to Russia but now those are everywhere... Iranian drones seem to be much, much more dangerous than Russian ever were.

[heydude6]

Iran also denied supplying UAVs to Russia but now those are everywhere... Iranian drones seem to be much, much more dangerous than Russian ever were.

Wait really? For this war? That's awful.

[Strongpoint]

Iran also denied supplying UAVs to Russia but now those are everywhere... Iranian drones seem to be much, much more dangerous than Russian ever were.

Wait really? For this war? That's awful.

Yep. Today a whole bunch of Shahed* loitering munition stroke Odesa. They are also common on the frontlines. Russia got hundreds if not thousands of Iranian drones.

*what Muslim will name a soulless piece of metal and plastic a shaheed? I am an anti-theist but even for me it sounds hypocritical and I think it is insulting to the majority of Muslims

[Lord Shonus]

Ukraine has been successfully shooting the things down - there's video. That doesn't mean they're not a dangerous weapon, but they are not un-counterable. They're also single use, which will make them vulnerable to the same bottlenecks that were introduced into Russia's artillery ammunition supply.

[heydude6]

The fact that Russia seems to have any allies in this war is what worries me. I guess that's karma for the western sanctions on Iran from way back when.

[Starver]

"The Great Satan's enemy is my friend _{...though obviously they are all infidels, including every one of our neighbours...}"