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Author Topic: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition  (Read 67479 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #750 on: March 22, 2023, 07:12:24 am »

Footage is emerging of tanks being hauled out of Russian storage and heading West.

T-54s - which entered production in 1946. The ones I've seen pictures of on trains look like fairly early models as well.
At this point a 12 year old Hoi4 gamer could manage the Russian war effort better than the Russian high command

Starver

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #751 on: March 22, 2023, 07:50:40 am »

I'm not sure what I'd like to see arrive most, T-35s, Object 279s or the Tsar(/Lebedenko/Pipistrelle) 'Tank'.

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Loud Whispers

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #752 on: March 22, 2023, 08:17:30 am »

I'm not sure what I'd like to see arrive most, T-35s, Object 279s or the Tsar(/Lebedenko/Pipistrelle) 'Tank'.
I'm hoping we get to see great war era equipment and vehicles again. Donbas militia are already using 19th century Mosin-Nagants so why not 19th and 20th century tanks?

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It's at times like this I like to present the humble MKV tank. It was a British made tank designed in 1918 that was produced too late to see serious fighting in the Great War. When the Russian civil war kicked off, the British sent a bunch of MKVs to the White Russians. After the bolshevik victory some of these MKVs survived, and were brought back into service to defend against operation Barbarossa. The German invaders captured one of these MKVs but presumably saw no point in crewing such an obsolete vehicle so they sent it back to Berlin. In 1945 however with the Germans fielding militia units equipped with literally anything, no matter how obsolete, like muskets or crossbows, the MKV was fielded once more. This led to it being captured by the allies who were rather surprised to see a British Great War era tank covered in Russian markings serving in the German army - the little tank that could

Lord Shonus

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #753 on: March 23, 2023, 12:41:47 am »

I'm not sure what I'd like to see arrive most, T-35s, Object 279s or the Tsar(/Lebedenko/Pipistrelle) 'Tank'.
I'm hoping we get to see great war era equipment and vehicles again. Donbas militia are already using 19th century Mosin-Nagants so why not 19th and 20th century tanks?


The 1910 Maxim Gun has shown up in service repeatedly, but doesn't get much mockery because it is proving shockingly effective. Everyone assumed such an immobile weapon would be useless in modern war, but if it can survive (and Ukrainian ones have), it can still pour out an amount of death unmatched by any modern weapon* (and Ukranian ones have).

*All modern machine guns are air-cooled to save weight, under the assumption that the most important aspect of a machine gun is being able to move it rapidly - either to avoid counterfire on the defense, or to move up in support of an assault. Maxims are water-cooled, which adds significant weight to an already heavy weapon (it was, after all, the first true machine gun ever). The upside to that is that modern guns can only fire so long before overheating, forcing you to stop firing or change barrels. A Maxim can fire as long as you can keep it supplied with ammunition and "fresh" "water".
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jipehog

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #754 on: March 23, 2023, 03:04:45 am »

Good point. I do wonder how accurate it is, quick google suggest that its effective range is 2,700 meters which I am skeptical about that, but you could probably improve its performance with some modern modifications.

How about T-54/55, given some modifications can a quantity of these cheap and reliable tanks be useful on this battlefield?
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Il Palazzo

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #755 on: March 23, 2023, 03:44:51 am »

Any tank is better than no tank. Cf. Leopard 1s. It's still a mobile gun behind some protection. They're unlikely to see other tanks in open battle, if it can be helped. But they can be used for training, dug in as part of fortifications, used in infantry support role, or even as artillery, especially on less vital sections of the front - freeing more modern assets.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #756 on: March 23, 2023, 04:15:31 am »

Good point. I do wonder how accurate it is, quick google suggest that its effective range is 2,700 meters which I am skeptical about that, but you could probably improve its performance with some modern modifications.

For a machine gun, "effective range" is the distance to which a bullet can kill. You won't be pulling pinpoint accuracy at such ranges, but the only time you'll be firing at such extensive distances is to break up/harass clusters of men, a task for which precision is not required. This is the same reason that late 19th/early 20th century rifles had sights that went out to ludicrous distances - that was for an entire unit to lay down area fire.

At more reasonable ranges, the Maxim is quite accurate, probably more so than most machine guns because it is such a stable platform (due to being incredibly heavy)


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How about T-54/55, given some modifications can a quantity of these cheap and reliable tanks be useful on this battlefield?

In theory, of course they can. Ukraine was given just under thirty Slovenian M-55S tanks. These are T-55s refitted with a NATO 105mm gun, reactive armor, significantly improved fire control (an electronic computer, gun stabilizer, and laser rangefinder), and massive upgrades to the optics. Thus configured, it becomes almost equal to a mid-range T-72 in capability, the weak gun and armor being offset by more advanced fire control and optics. Practically, the only reason Slovenia was able to do this is that they were already operating these tanks domestically, and were in the process of phasing them out in favor of similarly upgraded T-72s. Developing such an upgrade program from nothing is practically impossible, and even if Russia has plans for such, it is very unlikely they have the sophisticated electronics you need to make useful improvements to combat capability.

A mostly stock T-54/55 is very unlikely to be useful. The 100mm gun isn't terrible, at least for flanking shots or against non-tank vehicles, but there's effectively zero stabilization (meaning the tank has to stop to shoot, and stop for several seconds to get the gun sway under control - most later Soviet tanks can fire from short stops or low speed movement, and modern NATO tanks retain full accuracy while moving at full speed), rangefinding is effectively nonexistant, and the optics are just glass. No night vision, no thermals. The armor is also marginal - 200mm turret/120mm hull of plain steel isn't that great, and that's the frontal armor. Any tank gun Ukraine has access to (be it the 125mm guns on their Soviet era tanks, the NATO 105mm, French 105s, or NATO 120mm) won't even notice. Neither will any dedicated anti-tank infantry weapon - even a humble RPG-7 or AT4 (hell, if they dug up a M20 Super Bazooka somewhere) will blast right through. Even some of the bigger autocannon on some of the IFVs being donated will go through, though the M2 Bradley's gun won't do the job (they have TOW missiles for that). From the sides, most autocannon would be able to penetrate. A T-54 is no match for a T-72, and a Leopard 2 or Abrams (note that Abrams deliveries have been hastened, probably enough to get them in country this year) would have no concerns except ammunition supply.

Using them as infantry support is effectively suicide, because literally any anti-armor rocket or recoilless rifle round will take one out, and those have been very generously seeded at low levels in Ukrainian forces. Dug in as fortifications is also not all that great an option, because Ukraine has precision-guided munitions that have been used to extremely great effect - the roof armor on a T-54 is thin enough that even the non-explosive area-attack munitions from a GMLRS rocket might punch through. Training is also dubious - these tanks are so obsolete that you'd basically have to retrain from scratch in a newer model. They might be useful for flank patrols against aggressive raids with light armor, or to bulk out an attack spearheaded by real tanks (where their role would be to divide defensive fire and provide additional suppression), but that's the likely extent. The old adage that "any tank > no tank" is a good rule of thumb, but there's a point where a vehicle doesn't even count as a tank on the modern battlefield, and the T-54 is pretty close to that line.
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King Zultan

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #757 on: March 23, 2023, 04:38:49 am »

Kind of cool seeing all this old shit coming out being used again, and that some of it is still viable is also pretty cool.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #758 on: March 23, 2023, 07:55:55 am »

(note that Abrams deliveries have been hastened, probably enough to get them in country this year)
The trade-off being that they're now going to be refurbished M1A1s instead of new M1A2s. And I still think 30ish tanks in autumn-winter, after what's likely to be the most important phase of the fighting, when you have thousands in storage - is a joke.

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Using them as infantry support is effectively suicide, because literally any anti-armor rocket or recoilless rifle round will take one out, and those have been very generously seeded at low levels in Ukrainian forces.
By the same logic, using any IFV in that role is a suicide.
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Strongpoint

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #759 on: March 23, 2023, 08:28:23 am »

French media reported that Ukrainian pilots are training to fly Mirage 2000s multipurpose fighters for more than a month.

It was quickly denied by the Ukrainian Air Force but I suspect that this leak is true (Also, such leaks are quite detrimental. Russians should be surprised by this kind of stuff)
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Starver

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #760 on: March 23, 2023, 09:08:34 am »

Good point. I do wonder how accurate it is, quick google suggest that its effective range is 2,700 meters which I am skeptical about that, but you could probably improve its performance with some modern modifications.
(Pre-ninjaed by the following, including just to acknowledge it already saying some of what I want to say to the above.)
For a machine gun, "effective range" is the distance to which a bullet can kill. You won't be pulling pinpoint accuracy at such ranges, but the only time you'll be firing at such extensive distances is to break up/harass clusters of men, a task for which precision is not required. This is the same reason that late 19th/early 20th century rifles had sights that went out to ludicrous distances - that was for an entire unit to lay down area fire.

At more reasonable ranges, the Maxim is quite accurate, probably more so than most machine guns because it is such a stable platform (due to being incredibly heavy)

...A rapid-fire weapon (or a volley-firing of multiple 'standard' speed weapons) is mostly for area-denial use. There's mostly no benefit to having a pinpoint repeat accuracy to such a weapon, it either penetrates/damages whatever it hits on the first impact or follow-up projectiles are no use.

Some such weapons are often 'detuned', by design, to create a spray of bullets, so that your trench-broom/whatever does its job without having to be waved around more than necessary. Though obviously that'd still be a tighter cluster for those required to cover a patch at long range rather than the same for more close-in work. I'm sure there are plenty of considerations taken in choosing your favourite weapons/loadout for a given situation. For storming an embassy, you want to be sure your bullets aren't rattling around the place so much, when you need to be sure you hit only 'bad guys', and airborne gatling support shouldn't put your own ground troops in much more danger than that for which they already called you in for. Aegis defence pods will have their own automated assumptions, in trying to put their swarm of little angry metal bees in the way of an incoming missile, as the range quickly narrows (or setting up a curtain from the side, in protecting another resource).




I saw the pictures of the maxim's setup, but not (for opsec reasons, surely) exactly what kind of area it was firing at, and at what distance. I don't know exactly how well suited it was for the defensive position, but clearly by some form of Darwinian principles this one has been well-suited enough to its purpose (and lucky... all it takes is a single artillery shot where the bunker is hit in just the right/wrong way) to have apparently become an effective tool against the Tools that the Russians were then sending up against those defences.

(As propoganda/general authorised interest, I of course worry about this featured unit. If you send reporters in to talk to those who have done well against the enemy, it doesn't guarantee that they'll stay as lucky. Reversion to the mean suggests that they're as likely to suffer setbacks in the next round of conflict as anyone, save for whatever edge they have gained from experience (and less that they lose due to accumulated fatigue), but if there's even a hint of a clue that could help the opposition narrow down who, what and where they are then it might provoke a more targeted response. Or clue the enemy in on ways to better encircle them, by choosing softer flanks. No doubt there are far more cards being held to the Ukrainian chest than these choice examples, but we have no idea how well the higher-ups are at using the hand given to them, except that they're provably by no means total fools, so...)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #761 on: March 25, 2023, 05:07:05 am »

The 1910 Maxim Gun has shown up in service repeatedly, but doesn't get much mockery because it is proving shockingly effective. Everyone assumed such an immobile weapon would be useless in modern war, but if it can survive (and Ukrainian ones have), it can still pour out an amount of death unmatched by any modern weapon* (and Ukranian ones have).

*All modern machine guns are air-cooled to save weight, under the assumption that the most important aspect of a machine gun is being able to move it rapidly - either to avoid counterfire on the defense, or to move up in support of an assault. Maxims are water-cooled, which adds significant weight to an already heavy weapon (it was, after all, the first true machine gun ever). The upside to that is that modern guns can only fire so long before overheating, forcing you to stop firing or change barrels. A Maxim can fire as long as you can keep it supplied with ammunition and "fresh" "water".
Not bad for a weapon invented in 1884. Reminds me of the Dardanelles gun that the Ottomans used to breach the walls of the Byzantine Empire being reused 300 years later to defend against a British warship (successfully!) or that one bronze age sword being reused 2800 years later in the Irish rebellion. Ancient and obsolete does not always mean ancient and obsolete, provided the circumstances permit :P

King Zultan

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #762 on: March 26, 2023, 02:42:13 am »

Sometimes the old ways are the best ways.
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Strongpoint

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #763 on: March 26, 2023, 03:12:35 am »

I find it especially amusing that we are starting to see triple\quad maxims used as AA weapons against slow-moving drones like Shahed and this vintage setup is way more effective than using modern infantry machineguns for this role. (sure, something like Oerlikon would be better but...)

BTW, Russia produced this abomination to fight drones and I actually think that it is a really smart idea to use old naval AA turrets for this.
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jipehog

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Re: News Update War in Ukraine - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #764 on: March 26, 2023, 06:18:10 am »

I suspect that the effectiveness of the maxims is exaggerated or we are using different scales to measure it.

Given the attritional nature of this war a much more emphasis is given on availability, reliability and cost. Russia started using Iranian drones swarms because at unit cost of ~20k vs upward of 100k for interceptor missile they are effective in degrading, if not defeating, Ukrainian AA and shifting the cost scale in Russia's favor. This is why we see reintroduction of simple gun-based AA systems.  I suspect that German Gepard is by FAR more effective at shooting down these drones swarms but due to their limited quantity and reliance on specialized ammo (last I checked produced in Switzerland, who have export prohibition) make the domestic built maxim installation that use standard and readily available ammo the best choice to plug any holes.
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