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[Starver]

A Russian diplomat to the UN, in Geneva, has quit in protest of his country's involvement in this whole thing.

While I was trying to wrangle a more targetted link out of the live page, there was a longer, updated bit that I noticed, so just copypasting that (not much missing, that was in the original, and sctually some interesting new bits) to save time.

I'm sure they already think I'm a traitor - Russian diplomat

Boris Bondarev has spoken to the BBC's Russia Editor Steve Rosenberg about why he became the country's most senior diplomat to defect over the war.

"The reason is that I strongly disagree and disapprove of what my government is doing and has been doing at least since February, and I don’t want to be associated with that any longer," he said.

Bondarev said it was a case of when, not if, he was going to quit. "I don’t see any alternative."

Despite being shocked by the Russian invasion, he said he does not believe his feelings are widespread in the foreign ministry.

"I think most people, the majority of them, are following the propaganda and what their superiors tell them.

"When you work in the ministry you work in a hierarchy, so you must obey what your superior tells you. And for many years any critical approach has been erased from the ministry mostly," he said.

Although he said his decision to leave would not likely change things, he said "it may be one little brick into the bigger wall which would eventually be built".

Asked if he believes he will be considered a traitor, Bondarev said: "I think they are already considering me as such."

[Strongpoint]

Spoiler: here is Bondarev's letter (click to show/hide)

[nenjin]

Your text isn't coming through, for me. Dunno if it's my browser or what.

[Starver]

It works Ok for me. (It's an image-link to https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTcVOwVWQAILS6b?format=jpg&name=900x900 which probably means the HTTP header-return has to do the heavy-lifting, whereby a URI with fully qualified .jpg extension might let the browser do its usual <img>-tag stuff, but that shouldn't be a problem...)

I'll transcribe it, though, while I'm here, in case it's a bigger problem. Apologies for typos, they're probably mine where they exist[1]. And that [sic] suggestion is mine. Didn't see the error when I read it, but too obvious not to 'correct' when I retyped it...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Statement

My name is Boris Bandarev, in the MFA of Russia since 2002, since 2019 until now – Counsellor of the Russian Mission to the UN Office at Geneva.

For twenty years of my diplomatic career I have seen different turns of our foreign policy, but never have I been so ashamed of our country as on February 24 of this year. The aggressive war unleashed by Putin against Ukraine, and in fact against the entire Western world, is not only a crime against the Ukrainian people, but also, perhaps, the most serious crime against the people of Russia, with a bold letter Z crossing out all hopes and prospects for a prosperous free society in our country.

Those who conceived this war want only one thing - to remain in power forever, live in pompous tasteless palaces, sail in yachts comparable in tonnage and cost to the entire Russian Navy, enjoying unlimited power and complete impunity. To achieve that they are willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes. Thousands of Russians and Ukrainians have died just for this.

I regret to admit that over all those twenty years the level of lies and unprofessionalism in the work ofthe Foreign Ministry has been increasing all the time. However, in most recent years, this has become simply catastrophic. Instead of unbiased information, impartial analysis and sober forecasting, there are propoganda clichés in the spirit of Soviet newspapers of the 1930s. A system has been built that deceives itself.

Minister Lavrov is a good example of the degredation of this system. In 18 years, he went from a professional and educated intellectual, whom many [of? - sic] my colleagues held in such high esteem, to a person who constantly broadcasts conflicting statements and threatens the world (that is, Russia too) with nuclear weapons!

Today, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not a out diplomacy. It is all about warmongering, lies and hatred. It serves interests of few, the very few people thus contributing to further isolation and degradation of my country. Russia no longer has allies, and there is no one to blame but its reckless and ill-conceived policy.

I studied to be a diplomat and have been a diplomat for twenty years. The ministry has become my home and family. But I simply cannot any longer share in this bloody, witless and absolutely needless ignominy.

Assuming it's real (without checking it was a definite post by the individual concerned), it seems to be very aligned with non-Russian reporting so he's "gone native" significantly, whilst significantly west of the Urals.

I'd like to see a good analysis of the cost and tonnage claim. I can believe it (based upon 'practical servicable fleets' in both instances, probably, at least before western impoundings) but I would not have otherwise assumed that the number and scale of those superyachts were quite at that magnitude (and/or the great naval flottillas were degraded quite so much, though I knew they were significantly so). If it isn't just ingratiating hyperbole (the better to build new bridges to new banks, after burning the old ones so thoroughly) then it is incredibly interesting.

[1] Though the punctuation of the original leaves something to be desired, and I have refrained from redoing it how I would have prefered.   But just so you know that I disapprove of the author in this respect, at least..

[EuchreJack]

Sorry to ask so much, but was just talking to someone about the Russians killing civilians to someone saying there was insufficient evidence.

Could people put together a list of articles, ideally independent and possibly right leaning periodicals?

I'd like to try some deprogramming.

[brewer bob]

Not sure if this helps, but maybe for starters check the Wikipedia page on the 'War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine'?

The references section has quite a list of articles.

Though, I'm not sure if there's any right leaning sources on the list, but alleged war crimes from the Ukrainian side are also listed there.

Edit: There's also a Wikipedia page on 'Casualties of the Russo-Ukrainian War', which lists civilian deaths and sources of the numbers.

[EuchreJack]

So, I see both The Daily Telegraph and The Guardian are cited.  So that helps.

[KittyTac]

.

[EuchreJack]

So, I decided it's probably useless.
Thanks for the help.
I at least have more information.

[Starver]

"Insufficient evidence" probably means "If there's any doubt in my mind, then I'll sieze upon that above all else".

In the legal sense, that Russian has been found guilty (publicallg admitted his guilt, even) over killing the man on the bike who had been on the phone. Though if you trust the Ukrainian legal/political system as little as I might with the Russian/Iranian/etc ones, then you could easily dismiss that as pure duress and corruption. (I can quite imagine the path to coury wasn't entirely free of non-conflict physical pressures, which is not ideal, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a case of Framing The Guilty Party as a means to an end.

And the sentence is life-imprisonment (and an appeal pending, looking to commute that[1]) rather than the death-penalty that has been described as be summarily (or after interrogation, so not even in the heat of the moment) been enacted upon even civilians 'captured' by Russian units. It's a good high-ground to take (even if his execution might have been cathartic) and bends the relative pressures of "should I fight to the last, or surrender much sooner" upon the respective forces should they end up in a hopeless combat position. As long as the Russian cannon-fodelder know this, of course.


Anyway, back to the proof... There's plenty of credible evidence, as you (i.e. yourself, not the target that needs hyperconvincing) can see. So long as you (i.e. that target person) aren't deliberately critical of the, to your eyes, 'biased' sources. And if you only trust Russian-state media, naturally you can decide to think that every BBC, CNN, AFP, etc source is the actual fabrication. And that's a particularly pernicious rabbithole to be down. You might be able to dig someone out of that. It depends how much is just delusion and how much is active self-delusion, I suppose.


[1] Prediction: Assuming nothing goes wrong (by accident or design) and Ukraine continues to be free, there will be a parole/prisoner-swap in the not too distant future. And if Russia continues to be led by the current propoganda-nose, the guy may even be publically fêted[2] when he returns home for some mythical achievement that's totally not about the trial, but a feel-good thing to assuage the masses, because if they have gone to that much trouble then they should at least use him. But if things go badly, he could be either killed by being in the line of fire as Russia charges past and through his place of imprisonment (highly unlikely they'd try to run a combat sub-mission to extract him, not worth adjusting the scorched-earth tactic of shelling anything they think has Ukrainians in) or just end up lost in the newly-administered system, 'Prisoner X', loved by neither party in the Occupation. Being both Handily Incarcerated Oppressor and Traitorous Yellowbelly.

[2] But possibly privately castrated, hopefully just figuratively, for giving the Enemy the opportunity to put him on public trial.

[martinuzz]

Russia is blackmailing the world now.
They say they are willing to stop blockading Ukrainian ports, so food can be exported, but only if all sanctions against Russia are dropped.

So basically, drop sanctions or Africa dies.

[Quarque]

So, I decided it's probably useless.
Thanks for the help.
I at least have more information.

When someone says "insufficient evidence" now, they're almost certainly not open to rational arguments. By far the best way to convince someone like that is if he would spend some time in Ukraine, get to know some people there and befriend them. Our opinion is all too often based on emotion and only look for some rational arguments as an afterthought.

[brewer bob]

Several alleged Wagner mercenaries have been identified and face war crime charges, the Guardian reports.

Wagner Group fighters accused of murdering civilians in Ukraine

Two alleged Wagner Group fighters from Belarus have been accused of murdering civilians near Kyiv, making them the first international mercenaries to face war crimes charges in Ukraine.

Ukrainian prosecutors late on Tuesday released the names and photographs of eight men wanted for alleged war crimes – including murder and torture – in the village of Motyzhyn. Several are believed to have fought in Syria.

They say five are Russian soldiers, one is a Russian mercenary with the Wagner Group and the final two are Belarusian mercenaries.

The Guardian has previously reported on the alleged involvement of the soldiers named by prosecutors on Tuesday in the systematic torture and murder of civilians in Ukraine including the head of the village council and her husband and son.

There have been reports of Wagner fighters on the ground in Ukraine, but these are the first charges against allegedly serving mercenaries, and the first non-Russians charged.

Established in 2014 to support pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, Wagner is allegedly funded by Yevgeny Prigozhin, a powerful businessman who is closely linked to Vladimir Putin and has faced western sanctions.

Russia has used paid fighters to bolster its forces since the start of the war. It was estimated to have deployed between 10,000 and 20,000 mercenaries from Syria, Libya and elsewhere, including Wagner Group fighters, in its offensive in Ukraine’s Donbas region, a European official said last month.

A survivor had previously described to the Guardian how Russian soldiers who were perpetrating a sadistic killing spree lasting days in the village had described Ukraine as a “fairytale” compared with Syria.

Prosecutors said Sergey Vladimirovich Sazanov 51, born in the town of Rechitsa in Belarus, was one of about 300 Wagner mercenaries who participated in a February 2018 offensive in the Syrian province of Deir ez-Zor. They cited the open source research group InformNapalm.

Another man, Alexander Alexandrovich Stupnitsky, 32, a native of Orsha in Belarus, was identified as a liaison officer for the assault platoon of the Wagner Group’s 1st reconnaissance and assault company.

The third man identified as a Wagner member, Sergey Sergeevich Sazonov, 33, was born in Kaliningrad and is allegedly the driver of the Wagner Group command vehicle.

Read the full report by Lorenzo Tondo, Isobel Koshiw, Emma Graham-Harrison and Pjotr Sauer.

[Starver]

Major General Kanamat Botashev, pulled out of retirement at 63 years of age[1] to fly a plane over Ukraine, is reliably reported as having been shot down by Ukrainian defenders. A now deleted pro-Russian post confirmed that he was hit by a missile, (dropped his?[2]) bombs then finally got taken out by a Stinger that he did not survive to eject (or eject to survive). Western media have confirmed his death (and a shooting down) but details may still be distorted.

I'm not keeping count of 'generals', myself, but that's another one. That he was considered for flight duty is one thing, but he was also apparently very eager to do this - which might explain why he ended up there, but then adds more grist to the mill in the non-conscript mindset discussion.


[1] Was apparently dismissed from active service ten years ago for "flying two planes without permission". But I now can't get the image out of my mind that that was done simultaneously!

[2] The obvious translated phrase was a bit of "eats, shoots and leaves", but I presumed he released bombs, and didn't get bombs dropped on his aircraft.

[Loud Whispers]

[2] The obvious translated phrase was a bit of "eats, shoots and leaves", but I presumed he released bombs, and didn't get bombs dropped on his aircraft.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Probably not... But it has happened before