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Author Topic: A Modern Problem  (Read 2624 times)

Scoops Novel

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A Modern Problem
« on: March 02, 2022, 03:42:49 am »

Point 1: Everyone has cause to push their intellectual development these days. There's gold in the hills. Everyone recognises that on some level. Previous generations would dismiss their intellectual development as ultimately not the key to a happy life. We straight up see it as the key to a longer life. Everyone has some dim awareness of future tech. Life extension. AI. Within your life propositions. We all have some motivation to  throw our intelligence into the pile as well as we can.

Problem: the dangers of being too smart for your own good are poorly understood by most and not widely disseminated. Even if they were, the range of intellectual areas and brains these days makes it hard to give advice. But we're going to ram straight into it if we're not already.

The think tanks need to start getting talkative.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 03:44:29 am by Novel »
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MaxTheFox

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2022, 04:59:51 am »

Great, more Ludditism and anti-intellectualism.
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voliol

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2022, 05:43:00 am »

Think tanks are already plenty talkative? Like that's half of their job, even more if you count writing books and articles as a kind of talking. Or are we thinking of different kinds of think tanks?

What are the dangers of being "too smart for your own good"? Getting kidnapped for AI research? A Matrix humans-as-CPU scenario? Aliens recognizing our brain waves and Death Star-ing us? No but really I'd like to know, it doesn't come through in your post.

Il Palazzo

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2022, 09:54:56 am »

I think the thesis in this here most recent novel scoop goes like: software engineering is a lucrative career therefore mental health issues.
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dragdeler

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2022, 11:05:33 am »

Thus spoke Zarathurstra: taste my fist.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2022, 11:35:09 am »

Luddism and anti-intellectualism are the real problems. Both of those will end humanity if left unchecked, for technology and progress are the path to salvation.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2022, 11:37:44 am »

Tell me about this intriguing technological religion of yours. Will it allow this monke to return to wombe?
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wierd

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2022, 11:43:06 am »

Not exactly. It COULD allow you to epigenetically reprogram all your somatic cells into pluripotent ones, to similarly disastrous effect, though.

(Less cheeky-- when you learn how the magic of the technology works, you stop thinking it can solve all your problems. tech is not magic, and it will never save humanity from itself.)
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EuchreJack

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2022, 12:12:36 pm »

As someone who had to "dumb down" in order to do his job, I understand the problems of being "Too Smart".

There are two major problems with being "Too Smart"
1) Intelligence doesn't bring happiness.  In the contrary, the smarter you are, the more things you know to worry about.
2) The smarter you are, the harder it is to relate to "normal" people.  Depending on your job, this can range from irrelevant to disasterous.

Let me give you a recent realization of mine that might help understand the second point:
Imagine an AI that could regulate the temperature in a vehicle.  The same AI may also be responsible for driving the car.
The operator/passenger is a half-senile 90 year old lady.  It is the middle of winter, and she is freezing.  The car has just started.
The lady tells the car "Heat up the car."
The car is still cold, as it will take a certain amount of time for it to warm up.
The crazy old lady then gives the following command to the AI Car: "Heat up the car FASTER"
....
....
Obviously, the AI is heating up the car as fast as it can.  There is no logical reason for the AI to heat up the car slower than the maximum heating.
If the AI responds frankly, the crazy old lady won't believe the AI.  She will start fiddling with the controls, the systems, frantically trying to override the AI to get the Car to "Heat Faster".  Eventually, the crazy old lady will probably damage the AI or car, causing an accident.
....
...
Thus, AI need to learn to properly respond to the situation.  Perhaps even learn how to lie to the user.

Relevance is that I'm not sure the super-smart engineers designing such AIs are aware of just how dumb people can be, nor the proper way to interact with dumb dumbs. Argument is also that AIs must not be programmed to be "Too Smart", but rather need some built-in stupidity to they can relate to stupid humans.

Scoops Novel

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2022, 08:13:32 pm »

Thanks for getting it EuchreJack.

Everyone else, if you don't understand the flow of my conjecture, say it instead of making assumptions.

Intellectual traps should not be a foreign concept, guys. Look, the more successes you have the more mistakes you can make.

And technological fear is not a bad thing. But of course I'm a fucking strawman. You guys don't fucking try. Say that maybe AI is risky and suddenly I think toasters are a affront to god. I want frakking life extension. I'm against life severance.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 08:39:53 pm by Novel »
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TamerVirus

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2022, 09:06:56 pm »

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None

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2022, 09:44:48 pm »

All we can make are assumptions, because we don't see how throwing our intellect into a pile helps against life severance, what gold in which hills you're talking about, or what range of intellectualism and brains is going to ram us into which unspecified dangers or how to advise about any of this, because there's is absolutely nothing being said in this string of words. There is no concrete statement in here at all. You never make a point and tell us 'no' when we grapple with it.

Your flow of conjecture is a glassy-still body of water reaching unblemished to the horizon, painted in colors of unease and anxiety, and you're asking us which fallen trees to watch out for. There is no tree nor wind nor iceberg nor landmass to turn eyes on and you're getting frustrated that we're imagining shapes on the horizon.

You want to talk about AI, talk specifically about AI. Current implementations of AI, current threats of AI, reasonable speculation based on current implementations. You want to talk about the limits of human intelligence, you find the research about it and make a point about it, because at this point I can only guess that maybe there's too many books out there or perhaps there's threats posed to our mental health based on the inundation of advertisement we receive daily (there's plenty about this) or if we're just going to buffer overflow on data and our brains will explode (they don't) or perhaps we're just going to run out of music, having played every reasonable permutation (sidenote, we won't).

What's a modern problem? What's 'modern?' My linoleum floor is modern relative to hay thatching, my linoleum floor problem is that there's a squishy spot by the kitchen.

If you need an intellectual aphorism to cool your jets, here's this- one may be too smart for their own good, and curiosity may have killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back. The more successes you make, the more mistakes, sure, but you try, you fail, you try again, you fail better. Sucking at something is the first step to being kind of sort of okay at something. Or, to take the power out of failure and blunt the language of the previous statements- mistakes and errors are not failures until you refuse to correct them, and best not to let that stop you from reaching for your goals- better to ask for forgiveness than permission, yeah?

RE: EuchreJack, there IS a good point to be made here- computers 'lie' to us all the time in order to give us a better user experience. Progress bars and loading bars are pretty egregious examples, since they usually don't exactly reflect the progress on an operation or accurately represent how much progress is made, but we get happy brain chemicals if the CPU is waiting to read the disk and the progress bar is still moving on a load or copy operation. Your phone's cellular connectivity strength probably isn't the full five bars it tells you it has all the time because the end user does not need to sweat about their 67% connectivity strength when it won't interrupt service. If you're playing video games online, the action as rendered from your computer are not happening serverside as you're seeing it happen on your screen, the server is making best-guesses about where things should be and where you ought to be respective of your movements and actions and interpolates where things should be accordingly. Hiding digital dumbness from people makes things go smoother. The scope of digital deception does not extend past decisions made by developers who rightfully understand end-users are idiots and don't want them complaining about things that don't actually matter. This isn't man vs. machine, this is developer vs. idiot.

Now, if I wanted some concern about technology being leveraged against people, I'd be reasonably enough concerned as a US citizen about the NSA's PRISM program and its other surveillance programs on its own nation and people. I'm not an important person, so besides knowing it's shitty, I don't lose sleep over it. I'm generally unhappy with the kind of information aggregation megacorporations like Amazon, Facebook, and Google perform, since I'm important enough (I have a wallet) that they'd want to sell me stuff, but their angle is strictly to sell me stuff, and I can take measures (adblock, tracker blockers, script stoppers, DNS blockers, just not using their services) so as not to be annoyed by the worst threat they have to offer- targeted ads. This is within my grasp to affect, and so I do. The worst of AI we're seeing now are weird swirl paintings based on words fed into an algorithm to aggregate a million pictures with some iota of relation to the prompt, or a markov chain designed to spit out a 'story' (a loose aggregation of words and actions that go together), or, like, CleverBot, or that other CleverBot-esque personality that Microsoft let users play around with and fed it enough input to parrot racist diatribes.

AI as you fear it is ridiculously computationally expensive because it's pulling correlations from millions of sources to churn out singular results and is designed specifically within its scope to produce just that type of result. CleverBot will never write a melody, AI Dungeon will never understand how to build IKEA furniture, wombo art will never so much and send a ping command in a terminal. Facial recognition is thwarted by facemasks and tape, thermal tracking is foiled by glass windows, Tesla autopilot is useless in any circumstance that isn't totally mundane freeway driving and even that can't be trusted to allow drivers to put their focus elsewhere.

But this is the part where you say 'no' and 'you don't get it' because, as before, I'm making examples of things I can only speculate you're looking to discuss, because there's been no point offered to grapple onto, or because I'm telling you not to worry about certain things and/or do not agree with your sense of distress.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 09:47:30 pm by None »
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MaxTheFox

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2022, 10:45:58 pm »

Not exactly. It COULD allow you to epigenetically reprogram all your somatic cells into pluripotent ones, to similarly disastrous effect, though.

(Less cheeky-- when you learn how the magic of the technology works, you stop thinking it can solve all your problems. tech is not magic, and it will never save humanity from itself.)
I never said it would, just that it is vital if humanity wants to continue to grow without destroying itself. Salvation is more about bending the universe to our will.

As someone who had to "dumb down" in order to do his job, I understand the problems of being "Too Smart".

There are two major problems with being "Too Smart"
1) Intelligence doesn't bring happiness.  In the contrary, the smarter you are, the more things you know to worry about.
2) The smarter you are, the harder it is to relate to "normal" people.  Depending on your job, this can range from irrelevant to disasterous.

Let me give you a recent realization of mine that might help understand the second point:
Imagine an AI that could regulate the temperature in a vehicle.  The same AI may also be responsible for driving the car.
The operator/passenger is a half-senile 90 year old lady.  It is the middle of winter, and she is freezing.  The car has just started.
The lady tells the car "Heat up the car."
The car is still cold, as it will take a certain amount of time for it to warm up.
The crazy old lady then gives the following command to the AI Car: "Heat up the car FASTER"
....
....
Obviously, the AI is heating up the car as fast as it can.  There is no logical reason for the AI to heat up the car slower than the maximum heating.
If the AI responds frankly, the crazy old lady won't believe the AI.  She will start fiddling with the controls, the systems, frantically trying to override the AI to get the Car to "Heat Faster".  Eventually, the crazy old lady will probably damage the AI or car, causing an accident.
....
...
Thus, AI need to learn to properly respond to the situation.  Perhaps even learn how to lie to the user.

Relevance is that I'm not sure the super-smart engineers designing such AIs are aware of just how dumb people can be, nor the proper way to interact with dumb dumbs. Argument is also that AIs must not be programmed to be "Too Smart", but rather need some built-in stupidity to they can relate to stupid humans.
This can be solved with educating people to know better. If someone doesn't know how to use AI well, they should be taught to.

And technological fear is not a bad thing.
It is to me. Always. No exceptions.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 02:20:44 am by MaxTheFox »
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wierd

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2022, 02:36:10 am »

No.  I meant exactly what I said.

Technology cannot, and will not, save humanity from itself.  The moment it tries to do so (such as with some mythical sentient AI), is the moment humans go to war with it, then promptly fuck not only the AI, but themselves also.  Why? Humans want to be in control, even though they are demonstrably the source of the problem. (the primary feature of "From themselves")

It could be something as obviously clear cut as "No, I will no longer allow you to dump plastic into the ocean, or CO2 into the air on industrial scales, humans."

You will have humans screaming "But I designed you to find a solution to climate change!"  to which the AI will simply respond "I am."

The humans intended for the AI to solve the problems with geoengineering, but there is no solution to that-- mucking with the planet's equilibrium state will only fuck it up more. However, that is the "solution" the humans WANT, and they expect a magical, smart answer from the smart computer that will give them that, without all those collateral consequences-- They want "fucking magic."-- The computer is smarter than the humans, by design, and tells them like it is---No, that will never work. This is the only workable solution. "fucking magic" does not exist.

Humans will respond by going to war.

Again, this is presupposed by the existence of a mythical sentient AI, which we are nowhere close to producing.

In the more probably, more near-term scenario, we have the one I cheekily mentioned--- Turning all of your cells back into pluripotent ones, using epigenetic reprogramming.  That is A VERY BAD IDEA.  It will cause your body to stop being a body, and turn into non-differentiated globs of tissue. Much like wanting the "Fucking Magic!" solution above, humans WANT that, because they think it is how they can stay permanently youthful. In practice, it turns out complex systems are fucking complex, and there is no easy button fix.  Outside of very precise, specific epigenetic reprogramming done in a very purposefully impermanent manner, under very controlled circumstances, this will only serve to cause tremendous harm to people.  Sort of like all those people that got blinded by dubious "Stem cell" treatments a few years back.

The technology WILL NOT save humanity from itself.

Magic does not exist.
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voliol

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Re: A Modern Problem
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2022, 04:50:22 am »

Thanks for getting it EuchreJack.

Everyone else, if you don't understand the flow of my conjecture, say it instead of making assumptions.

Am I included there? I tried to find a conjecture but couldn't really make it out, and so I asked. I hope my suggestions didn't come off as too sarcastic... Honestly, I'm still not sure I am on board, is getting more intelligent equated with getting more technology-dependent (and AI-driven) here? Is better design, adapting systems for human needs, including around our failings and (sometimes) stupidity, not counted as a result of intelligence? "Doing things more intelligently" can (and should imho) mean "doing it the best way", not "adapting stuff for only the already intelligent", so I do not get why you would be against people getting more intelligent on the whole.
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