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[McTraveller]

Gill...argued that the war in Ukraine was no different than the 2003 US invasion of Iraq

I know I'm clouded by the media to which I was subject in 2003 - but is that really true? I don't see how these things are the same, either in intent or magnitude.  The US wasn't trying to (directly, I know there are reasonable claims of puppet governments and indirect influence) annex territory, it was responding to an actual (not hypothetical) attack.  I'm also not up to speed on the casualty numbers, but the devastation was nowhere near the same magnitude, was it?

Am I suffering from heavy propaganda?

[Lord Shonus]

Iraq had no genuine justification (you may be conflating with Afghanistan), but that's the only real comparison.

And naturally, the comparison made to Operation Allied Force and Operation Odyssey Dawn are much more disingenuous.

[Frumple]

Gill...argued that the war in Ukraine was no different than the 2003 US invasion of Iraq

I know I'm clouded by the media to which I was subject in 2003 - but is that really true? I don't see how these things are the same, either in intent or magnitude.  The US wasn't trying to (directly, I know there are reasonable claims of puppet governments and indirect influence) annex territory, it was responding to an actual (not hypothetical) attack.  I'm also not up to speed on the casualty numbers, but the devastation was nowhere near the same magnitude, was it?

Am I suffering from heavy propaganda?

Sho's mostly got it, but casualty numbers vs devastation probably isn't quite a one-one thing... the total death toll related to our (latest) horseshit invasion of iraq is somewhere in the 7 digits last I checked, but I don't recall us systematically destroying something like mariupol. Extremely different conditions and causes for the body count, though, plus, y'know, the iraq shit has spanned decades whereas the current ukraine invasion has... not.

They're not particular comparable other than our invasion of iraq having also been unjustified and unjustifiable.

... really, though, if your argument is putting your invasion on the same level as the US-Iraq one, you've plainly admitted you have no argument worth a damn, so...

[anewaname]

@McTraveller
I'd opine that you are suffering from improperly-weighted propaganda... There were some good reasons for the 2003 Iraq invasion (Saddam is an ass, the Iraqi's treat their women and other ethnicities wrong, etc) and there was a economic reason for the invasion (Iraq was a competitor with others for the oil export market and possibly rare earth commodities), but you can't sell an offensive invasion to the people based on "Saddam is an ass" and you aren't going to tell anyone you plan to profit from the war, so you say "they are developing weapons of mass destruction" to justify the war, and then you keep manipulating the war while you raise commodity prices a little and double your net profits.

Commodity traders thrive on "market disruptions" and disabled competitors, because they can better control the supply and the price. When they can, they encourage wars that will cripple market rivals.

[Random_Dragon]

Basically that. We were at least technically going after an actual dictator, but even that falls squarely in "doing the right thing for the wrong reason" at best (inappropriate though it is to label an invasion of any sort as "the right thing" mind you) since the reasons for it were largely because Bush Jr. felt it was a good time to try an finish what Bush Sr. started.

So both Bush's war and Putin's war can be broadly put in the same category of "personal misadventurers for a head-of-state's agenda backed up by nonsense claims" but with the main distinguishing features being that the dictator in this situation is on the invader's side this time, so the "doing the right thing for the wrong reason" factor is conspicuously absent. :V

[martinuzz]

EU Secretary of Foreign Affairs Joseph Borrell reports that the office of the EU advisory committee (EUAM) in Mariupol has been shelled by the Russians.
The buildings and equiment took heavy damage but no one was injured.

[Strongpoint]

Russia lost at least 340 tanks, 636 IFVs\AFVs\APCs, 97 self-propelled artillery systems, 35 helicopters, 661 trucks and utility vehicles.... 

It is enough to arm a moderately sized country

[brewer bob]

Twelve Russian National Guards refused to join the war in Ukraine and were fired, according to Meduza.

[scriver]

Just read an interesting article (it's in Swedish an paywalled unfortunately) about how Ukrainian forces fought the Russian colon with "IT-rangers" (my terms).

I looked up the part of the name of the force, Aerorozvidka, that I didn't understand (aero is probably aero, right?) on google translate and it came up as "intelligence", is that correct-ish?

(On a side note when I first typed it into translate it suggested slovakian, where apparently allegedly it means "marriage difference"? Go home, Lech, you're drunk)

[Strongpoint]

Just read an interesting article (it's in Swedish an paywalled unfortunately) about how Ukrainian forces fought the Russian colon with "IT-rangers" (my terms).

I looked up the part of the name of the force, Aerorozvidka, that I didn't understand (aero is probably aero, right?) on google translate and it came up as "intelligence", is that correct-ish?

(On a side note when I first typed it into translate it suggested slovakian, where apparently allegedly it means "marriage difference"? Go home, Lech, you're drunk)

In this context, rozvidka = reconnaissance.

[martinuzz]

Twelve Russian National Guards refused to join the war in Ukraine and were fired, according to Meduza.

Hah. That's what you get when you won't call a war a war.
Soldiers are legally allowed to refuse and you can't call it desertion or treason.

[Robsoie]

A note about the 2003 war in Iraq, Kofi Annan that was at the time UN Secretary General mentionned that according the UN charter it was an illegal war.
And when an illegal war happens it's obvious that many nations will protest and critic

So let's see what Putin said :
https://web.archive.org/web/20171116075919/http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/18/sprj.irq.uk.baker/

"Everything that is done without the U.N. Security Council's sanction cannot be recognized as fair or justified," Putin said in an annual live televised question-and-answer session, at which time he also confirmed he would seek a second term as president.

The irony.

[martinuzz]

The fucking stink nazi Putin just said that he will not stop bombing Mariupol until the Ukrainian army surrenders

[Ziusudra]

Just read an interesting article (it's in Swedish an paywalled unfortunately) about how Ukrainian forces fought the Russian colon with "IT-rangers" (my terms).

I looked up the part of the name of the force, Aerorozvidka, that I didn't understand (aero is probably aero, right?) on google translate and it came up as "intelligence", is that correct-ish?

(On a side note when I first typed it into translate it suggested slovakian, where apparently allegedly it means "marriage difference"? Go home, Lech, you're drunk)

In this context, rozvidka = reconnaissance.

There's a wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerorozvidka

[martinuzz]

One of my bigger fears about this whole conflict is that it might cause the collapse of Russia.

Then we don't have 'Russia with nukes', we'll have a warlord over here with nukes, a warlord over there with nukes, some coke dealers with nukes, some crazy oligarchs with nukes and then some.