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[martinuzz]

Which is why I said 'quite a few countries in northwest Europe', not Europe in general. I know there's EU countries that are worse than the US

[Jopax]

See, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there's plenty of room, or resources to go around for even more refugees in most of Europe. The previous refugee/migrant crisis didn't really end so much as it got stopped getting talked about after a while. Piling even more folks on top of that is only going to lead to more trouble. And this also might play into Russian plans, not only getting whatever they were after in Ukraine but weakening the EU by way of a massive amount of refugees. Even if the war ended right now, most of the folks that escaped can't go back anytime soon, or may not even want to considering the extent of the damage and the amount of time and resources it would take to get things functioning properly again. Especially for folks with skills and education that can find some sort of reliable work elsewhere.

The same happened after Yugoslavia fell apart albeit at a much smaller scale, and certain places still aren't anywhere near where they were before, nor will they ever be, instead dying a slow death as more and more folks leave for greener pastures.

[TD1]

It's not as confusing as the ads I've been getting in which a corporation (possibly a bank?) brags about helping lgbt homeless.

I'd think they'd be better not..... discriminating there according to sexuality 

Quite obviously a 'what's the social trend we can exploit to get the most social points?' scheme.

[Strongpoint]

While LGBT+ have a very good chance to be tortured (or even killed) as soon as Russians will see their social network accounts, Biden's focus on LGBT+ looks like a way to get political points at home.

[Random_Dragon]

I don't really understand why the US mention that of the max 100000 Ukrainian refugees they will take in, they will focus on lgbti, journalists and activists. The latter two I understand, but lgbti have better rights in quite a few countries in northwest Europe, where we don't have states and supreme courts that would like to see them not exist at all.

My guess is those are the categories most likely to be deliberately targeted by the Russian regime should they actually get a degree of control over what they're capturing.

[EuchreJack]

While LGBT+ have a very good chance to be tortured (or even killed) as soon as Russians will see their social network accounts, Biden's focus on LGBT+ looks like a way to get political points at home.

That is exactly what Biden has been doing regarding LGBT+ for the entirety of his presidency.

[Vector]

It's not as confusing as the ads I've been getting in which a corporation (possibly a bank?) brags about helping lgbt homeless.

I'd think they'd be better not..... discriminating there according to sexuality 

Quite obviously a 'what's the social trend we can exploit to get the most social points?' scheme.

Given that LGBT people are disproportionately likely to be homeless, have a harder time in general securing housing and work even when not already homeless, are likely to not have access to familial help even when that exists and are discriminated against when attempting to access shelter and services,

This is not merely virtue signaling or “discrimination.” It’s an attempt to assist people who are falling through the cracks of existing safety nets.


There was a notice I linked a while back that if Ukraine falls, a plan for a Chechnya-style purge of all remaining lgbt people in the country is likely. On the home front in the US many right-wing commentators have been viewing Russia’s invasion of Ukraine as a righteous war to defeat glbt influence. Putin has also started to frame things this way (see his complaints about being canceled like JK Rowling).

The signal from the US is that they are focusing on the people who Putin has suggested he is going to murder in order to make an example to others. Today that includes queers.

Trying to save people from concentration camps is not a bad thing.

Tough cookies y’all, today the ones most likely to be tortured and murdered and raped symbolically get prioritized for rescue, and Biden energizes his base at home, which has been watching some of our government trying to legislate us out of existence. After Mike “hang the gays” Pence left office, this kind of symbolic action by our government will help morale. I welcome my new Ukrainian friends!

PS: We all know it would be right to rescue Jews from the Germans back when, but of course when queers were liberated from the camps, they were not free. They went to prison in their new homes.

If you understand why Jews should have been prioritized in leaving Germany, you should understand something about this situation. The machinery in Russia is not as advanced as it was in Germany, but we are actually talking about a situation with concentration camps and mass murder. For particular citizens. The ones being rescued.

Hell, the situation in Northwest Europe is surely fine for journalists and activists, yes? They don’t need to go to the US particularly?

[martinuzz]

Hell, the situation in Northwest Europe is surely fine for journalists and activists, yes? They don’t need to go to the US particularly?

Journalists and activists are equally safe in Northwest Europe and the US. Lgbti are less safe / have less rights in at least parts of the US than in quite a few countries in Northwest Europe was all I was saying.
It's not like I am saying I do not acknowledge their plight, or don't want them to go to safety.

[anewaname]

Fuck your Russian peace talks.
...
...
...
Appeasers like you are what caused this situation.

I pretty much agree with this, but would say that it is the appeasers who are in political power who are at fault, not the powerless appeasers.

In a non-authoritarian country, political power comes in groups and when one group develops trade with an authoritarian country, that political group will attempt appeasement when there is any risk of conflict because of the authoritarian country's actions. Russia is heavily involved with trading with the EU/UK/USA and the political groups who benefit are the foundation of the Russian sympathizers and they have been exerting their political power, leading to failures to seize Russian oligarch assets and discussions of appeasement. These political groups need to be exposed when their profit sources are tied to global conflict zones, to show the country their conflict of interest in the matter.

Russia is great supplier of resources for the world and they do it using a repressed economy that ensures their workers work cheap and are happy to have the work. This should be an ethical concern in the countries that would not allow that within their own borders, but it only hits the news when reporters expose the work conditions in overseas industry.

==============

@Vector
There hasn't been much talk about how Russia funneled refugees into Russia... refugees that would be mostly women and children. I expect they will be publicized as being in "refugee camps" that function as forced labor camps, and used as leverage against future Ukrainian guerilla fighters.

[Vector]

@anewaname

I'm not really sure how your comment is relevant to my point.

@martinuzz

Yes, I apologize. I was really springboarding from your comment to reply indirectly to EuchreJack.

[martinuzz]

Apology accepted, no harm done.

[Quarque]

And the idea that a no-fly-zone means nuclear war is bullshit.

I honestly don't understand what makes you think so. If NATO wants to enforce a no-fly-zone over Ukraine, it would mean shooting down Russian planes and bombing Russian air defenses, including some air defenses within the Russian border. How do you think Putin would respond to that, if not by escalating it further?

Why does mutually assured destruction stop being a thing when a conventional war ON FOREIGN TERRITORY happens?

Mutually assured destruction is a game of Chicken. It is not a reliable way to prevent disaster but will in fact cause it.

Bertrand Russel explained it pretty clearly:

Since the nuclear stalemate became apparent, the Governments of East and West have adopted the policy which Mr. Dulles calls 'brinkmanship'. This is a policy adapted from a sport which, I am told, is practiced by some youthful degenerates. This sport is called 'Chicken!'. It is played by choosing a long straight road with a white line down the middle and starting two very fast cars toward each other from opposite ends. Each car is expected to keep the wheels on one side of the white line. As they approach each other, mutual destruction becomes more and more imminent. If one of them swerves from the white line before the other, the other, as they pass, shouts 'Chicken!', and the one who has swerved becomes an object of contempt. As played by irresponsible boys, this game is considered decadent and immoral, though only the lives of the players are risked. But when the game is played by eminent statesmen, who risk not only their own lives but those of many hundreds of millions of human beings, it is thought on both sides that the statesmen on one side are displaying a high degree of wisdom and courage, and only the statesmen on the other side are reprehensible. This, of course, is absurd. Both are to blame for playing such an incredibly dangerous game. The game may be played without misfortune a few times, but sooner or later it will come to be felt that loss of face is more dreadful than nuclear annihilation. The moment will come when neither side can face the derisive cry of 'Chicken!' from the other side. When that moment is come, the statesmen of both sides will plunge the world into destruction.

[hector13]

While LGBT+ have a very good chance to be tortured (or even killed) as soon as Russians will see their social network accounts, Biden's focus on LGBT+ looks like a way to get political points at home.

That is exactly what Biden has been doing regarding LGBT+ for the entirety of his presidency.

As opposed to Trump, who shat on LGBT+ for political gain during his presidency?[1]

I know which I prefer, as a human being who wants other human beings to be treated like human beings.

[1] giving him the benefit of the doubt here. He was a cunt in myriad ways, homophobia could easily be a default position for him.

[anewaname]

@anewaname

I'm not really sure how your comment is relevant to my point.

Right, it is not. I have been mentally circling around the implications of Russia's capture of the refugees for a while and I got triggered. Physically captured and transported to a place where enemies exist in all directions, as it used to be done in ancient history to destroy rival city-states and gain slave-labor.

[martinuzz]

BBC reporting on possible forced relocation to Russia from Mariupol.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60894142