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[martinuzz]

According to french president Macron, France, Turkey and Greece are preparing 'an extraordinary humanitarian operation' that would allow everyone to leave the destroyed city of Mariupol, without giving any further details.
Macron says he wants to discuss the plans for massive evacuation with Putin within 3 days.

I wonder what is the plan. Evacuation over sea, humanitarian transports guarded by French, Turkish and Greek navy?


In other news, Spotify announced it will cease all it's activities in and withdraw from Russia

[Strongpoint]

There are rumors that Russians are digging trenches in the Chernobyl zone... Trenches... in the place that accumulated radioactive particles in soil for decades.

PS. Dear Russians, there is a lot of scrap metal there, use it to build fortifications

[EuchreJack]

Putin would love everyone to leave Mariupol. The destination of Not Russia may be a problem however.

Since when did the French start openly helping the Russians?

[Strongpoint]

Putin would love everyone to leave Mariupol. The destination of Not Russia may be a problem however.

Since when did the French start openly helping the Russians?

While depopulating Mariupol seems to be a strategic goal for Russia, evacuation is far better than starvation. Even evacuation to Russian filtration camps.

[Lord Shonus]

Frande will actually be evacuating people instead of kidnapping them (like Russia does), and I seriously doubt that they're just setting this up to get people to come out and be shot (like Russia does).

Realistically, there's no way to do this without a major military component, which would be yet another "go ahead, give me a reason" action by France.  There's not much legitimate room for Russia to protest, and if they did interfere militarily it would be all the reason France needs to start operations. Making this a strong example of gunboat diplomacy.


The bigger story is the prospect of a joint operation between Turkey amd Greece. Turkey and Greece fuckimg hate each other.

[Random_Dragon]

When you fuck up starting a war so badly it makes Turkey and Greece put their heads together to clean up your shit, that's an impressive level of fuckup. :/

[Starver]

Noting how Russia has been fairly aggressive towards foreign ships going even near the Kerch Strait, since it gained the Crimea side, so it will require them to actually sensitively allow evacuation boats access to the Sea Of Azov (there being no way across at the Perekop isthmus). It'd require cooperation at a level the paranoid Russian command surely won't allow, and still risk itchy trigger-fingers/unfortunate accidents.

I can't see this happening, any more than a Luftbrucke operation. (And the original Luftbrucke really embarassed the Soviets, so not likely to be nostalgically accepted by the neo-Soviet high command.)

[martinuzz]

It might be worth mentioning that some 2 or 3 days ago, for the first time since the Cold War ended, the French nuclear armed submarines left their ports.

[heydude6]

Realistically, there's no way to do this without a major military component, which would be yet another "go ahead, give me a reason" action by France.  There's not much legitimate room for Russia to protest,

Russia will accuse France of using "humanitarian aid" as an excuse to bring its own troops onto foreign soil for the sake of interfering with Putin's "Special Military Operation", while utterly denying the irony of that statement.

Putin's already an international Pariah. His only goals are to keep his citizens duped and to avoid having his soldiers directly shoot NATO troops (cause that would lead to nuclear war). When Putin says no, France might send in the aid anyway, and at that point, he'll have to decide whether to shoot the aid. Maybe he'll just bomb them "accidentally" since they did walk into an active war zone.

That won't actually work though. Putin's lies are only meant to convince the Russian people. NATO will see the attack for what it is, and then Russia will be fucked (along with the rest of us probably). If they don't shoot the aid though, then Putin will look like a weak idiot when the fearmongering in this hypothetical initial objection doesn't pan out.

Hmm, maybe it can work out then. Just depends on whether France, Turkey, and Greece has the balls to actually send it in if Russia says no. If Russia says no and they actually respect Russia's request, then they just gave the enemy a win.

[martinuzz]

Noting how Russia has been fairly aggressive towards foreign ships going even near the Kerch Strait, since it gained the Crimea side, so it will require them to actually sensitively allow evacuation boats access to the Sea Of Azov (there being no way across at the Perekop isthmus). It'd require cooperation at a level the paranoid Russian command surely won't allow, and still risk itchy trigger-fingers/unfortunate accidents.

Isn't there something in international maritime law that is somewhat similar to NATO article 5; when a humanitarian convoy is under attack, defending it not only justified, but mandatory for all capable vessels in the vicinity? I could be wrong but I remember there being something like that.

[Robsoie]

It might be worth mentioning that some 2 or 3 days ago, for the first time since the Cold War ended, the French nuclear armed submarines left their ports.

I think the reports are more about the first time so many of the french nuclear subs are at seas at the same time, because i doubt any countries that have nuclear subs will leave them all in their port all the time, would defeat the point of nuclear detterence when your enemy can simply throw missile at a few ports and annihilate your whole sub nuclear capacity.

[martinuzz]

Heh. While according to Putin, the battle in Ukraine is a battle against nazis, for his right hand and supporter, patriarch Kirill, leader of the Russian orthodox church, it is a battle against gay parades.

[Lord Shonus]

It might be worth mentioning that some 2 or 3 days ago, for the first time since the Cold War ended, the French nuclear armed submarines left their ports.

I think the reports are more about the first time so many of the french nuclear subs are at seas at the same time, because i doubt any countries that have nuclear subs will leave them all in their port all the time, would defeat the point of nuclear detterence when your enemy can simply throw missile at a few ports and annihilate your whole sub nuclear capacity.

That is correct. France has maintained deterrence patrols, but with fewer boats to save money and maitenance burden.

[Strongpoint]

Heh. While according to Putin, the battle in Ukraine is a battle against nazis, for his right hand and supporter, patriarch Kirill, leader of the Russian orthodox church, it is a battle against gay parades.

I am really, really disappointed why the Russian Orthodox Church isn't outlawed in Ukraine and all churches aren't searched for saboteurs and weapon stashes.

I understand that this woudn't be the best move in informational warfare but the Russian Orthodox Church is nothing but a department of the FSB

[heydude6]

Is the Russian Orthodox Church different from the Ukrainian one? Cause when my family went to church again after not going in several months, our priest quite clearly condemned it.

I don’t think he’s a Russian puppet.