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[Starver]

Imagine if I were to suggest that (e.g.) Boris Johnson was maybe not entirely the competent person he thinks he is, and that got me imprisoned. Not that I'd make that particular assertion, of course. Nor have I ever...

But when you actually have Delusions Of Adequacy and a law that punishes the pointing out the (even partial) nudity of your Unclothed Emperor, then you have problems.

(Always seemed a funny tale, to me. I'd be happy to be seen naked, but only by stupid people? Maybe if the magical cloth only failed to be visible amongst exhibitionists and/or paid-up naturists. Those tailors used the wrong 'enchantment'!)

[Robsoie]

What was the justification of the Ukraine invasion according to Putin, that Ukraine was being led by nazi ?
Hmm, you mean the guys that considered protesters to be criminals ?

So who's the nazi again ?
Though it can be also argued that nazis and stalinists were the same, killing as much people, any dissenting voice getting "removed", etc...

[Sirus]

So what's next on the checklist? Is it the ethnic cleansing of everyone in Russia Putin dislikes, or is it nuking Ukraine...

A purge of insufficiently loyal officers and politicians seems, to me, far more likely than any use of nuclear weapons. Even Putin probably realizes that unleashing that particular dog of war will mean an end to him and his reign, and short of using enough warheads to glass every city in Ukraine it probably wouldn't win him the war anyway.

[LordBaal]

In Venezuela we have years living like that. Not as widespread as now in Russia but its how they all roll. You say something they dont like. You are a criminal. Fuck even not giving enough praise can be a problem, specially if you are somewhat relevant for whatever reason.

[martinuzz]

Though it can be also argued that nazis and stalinists were the same, killing as much people, any dissenting voice getting "removed", etc...

The only difference between nazis and stalinists was that the former spoke german and the latter spoke russian

EDIT: The US has decided to supply the SA-8 long range air defence systems they secretly acquired from the Soviet Union for reverse engineering purposes to Ukraine. They can shoot down aircraft up to 12km altitude, compared to the Stinger's 5km.
As an added benefit, the Ukrainian air defense troops are already trained in their use. Ukraine already has some SA-8, but are using them very sparsely because they only have a few.

This will surely aid the Ukrainian army, now that Russia is massively increasing air attacks (they are running out of cruise missiles).

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/nieuwe-fase-in-hulp-aan-oekraine-vs-willen-zwaardere-russische-raketten-leveren~b7157699/

EDIT: At about the same time that the City Council of Mariupol reports that Russia has dropped two enormous bombs on Mariupol, president Zelenski held a speech in which he says that 'there is nothing left of Mariupol, only ruins'. The reports are hard to confirm, with no more journalists or observers left in Mariupol.

EDIT: Russian journalist Dmitri Moeratov is putting his Nobel Peace Prize medal up for auction. The proceeds will go to supporting Ukrainian refugees.

[Strongpoint]

The only difference between nazis and stalinists was that the former spoke german and the latter spoke russian

Nope. Naziz didn't kill loyal Germans just to terroririze their own population.

[Starver]

Maybe, maybe not. Depends upon how far you take the No True Scotsman idea.

I'm sure were many German Jews, homosexuals, disabled, etc who would have considered themselves loyal and strived to discharge themselves loyally towards the state, and yet ended up either fleeing or directly suffering from the prejudices that they might not have noticed creeping up upon them. Perfectly mainstream/non-disruptive lecturers hounded out of thei universities, capable civil-service administrators, experienced industrialists, etc.

If there was a different magnitude/range of oppression under the Stalinist system, I'm not sure I would consider that fundementally different, just a fine differerence in detail and with as much overlap as any ideological mutual-exclusivity.

(The point about "terrorising the population" is probably more your point, but measuring the induced terror of the 'other', or else of falling foul of the authorities if you fail to properly do as they ask you act against the Other, is as objective a task.)


But it's hard to accurately and subjectively compare such wide-ranging "mass targettings".

[ChairmanPoo]

The only difference between nazis and stalinists was that the former spoke german and the latter spoke russian

Nope. Naziz didn't kill loyal Germans just to terroririze their own population.

Yes, yes they did.
I think you might be biased because comparatively speaking the nazis were a transient problem for Ukraine whereas Russia obviously remains a problem. But honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think it makes little sense to ponder "who was badder" with autocrats. By and large we´re talking about people who kill people whom the find convenient to kill for whatever reason,  with whatever excuse they fancy. Bodycounts are just a factor of available targets and expediency.

[heydude6]

Bodycounts are just a factor of available targets and expediency.

If only people were more aware about the philosophical concept known as moral luck. Stuff like this needs to be considered when judging/ranking the morality of an individual or group.

[McTraveller]

I keep wondering why people anywhere tolerate their governments passing laws that make criticizing that government illegal.

[LordBaal]

Usually those goverments are just legalizing the already implemented habit of killing/jailing disidents.

[McTraveller]

Right I concede that - what I don't understand is why more populations don't band together to overthrow governments that do that.

Put another way - what's the ratio of dissidents to loyalists in a population that makes it unpalatable for the loyalists to continue being such?  How does that ratio change depending on the relative armament of each population? That is, I can see if the loyalists are all armed and the dissidents are completely unarmed, the dissident/loyalist ratio has to be much higher.  At some point enough of the loyalists' parents/significant others/children/influences put enough peer pressure on the armed loyalists that they change sides.

I wonder what that ratio is...

[Il Palazzo]

That's because not all nations are Athens. Some are Sparta.

[heydude6]

Here's a not even remotely exhaustive list of why revolutions do not come easily

• People need to band together in order to rise up. Modern societies are very isolating compared to the communities of old, making it hard to organize in general
• Not every country has citizens who read 1984. For most of human history, we were ruled by kings and gods. Things like freedom of speech, freedom of press, and democracy aren't as universally valued as American's would think. Many countries don't care about those as much (especially free speech), which is why they are more willing to turn a blind eye to leaders who implement authoritarian policies. This isn't always a bad thing btw, it's these values that prevented America from enforcing mask mandates, but I would rather have a pandemic over a dictator, not that you necessarily have to choose between these extremes
• People are more tolerant of shitty conditions than you think. During the post-WWII period, we experienced an unprecedented age of abundance that ultimately wasn't sustainable. Now, we are seeing our quality of life erode before eyes, yet none of us are motivated enough to do something about it, because why would you risk your life if you'll still end up better off than the people in the 1920s? Only those who have been oppressed especially hard, like black people during the George Floyd murder have enough of a chip on their shoulder to justify an uprising

I don't believe ratios have anything to do with it btw. People don't push for political change simply because they believe they can pull it off, they do it because their life has gotten to the point that doing nothing is unbearable for them. Few countries have gun laws as liberal as america's, yet it seems like its those countries who are more eager to stage revolutions.

[brewer bob]

I'd add to list that each country has a different protest tradition. Those with longer traditions and an existing protest movement generally tend to go to the streets with less incentive than those where there is next to no protests.

I don't believe ratios have anything to do with it btw. People don't push for political change simply because they believe they can pull it off, they do it because their life has gotten to the point that doing nothing is unbearable for them.

I'd say that the middle-class plays a big part in this, too. If they're fine and their life's all good, they won't give a shit if there's laws being made that oppress some minorities or if protesters are labeled as extremists.