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[LordBaal]

The Leonardo and Donatello provinces and Crimea. Would Ukraine be willing to leave that territory for the sake of peace? That whoever sets a bad precendent, unless they join NATO or the EU inmediatelly afterwards to prevent the next Putin from just taking more territory in the future.

[Madman198237]

Surrendering territory to someone who started an unprovoked war in a blatant land grab would be an incredibly bad precedent to set. Putin has so very helpfully put the entire world into a "nobody wins" scenario in which no side can actually get something acceptable as a "victory" on terms the other side can also accept.

[Lord Shonus]

Fears of round 3 in a few years, or of constant harassment fire if Russian forces get pushed out but Putin refuses to accept defeat, may be overblown. All of the major producers of semiconductors have joined in the sanctions, which essentially pushes the Russian tech level to 1940s standards. They'll be able to get some via non-sanctioning countries, but not on the scale they're going to need just to replace losses even if they manage to unfuck their procurement programs. That's ignoring all the other vital resources they'd need to import, and where they'll get the money to pay for this all while being effectively shut out of the global economy.

Meanwhile, the main reason Ukraine's being supplied mostly with Soviet-era weapons is that it will take a long time to retrain them to Western hardware. Remove the existential, genocidal invasion force, and there will be plenty of time to train on the latest and greatest stuff. And I don't see sending them that stuff being a real barrier given what's already been sent.

[bloop_bleep]

What is this, Strongpoint? Somebody asks you about your source for the very bogus-sounding claim of bunker buster bombs, and you respond with an article about a battle from two weeks ago?

The bombing of the Mariupol theater where at least a thousand civilians were sheltering (and where the word "children" was written in Russian in large letters outside) is very real. CNN, The Guardian.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/16/europe/ukraine-mariupol-bombing-theater-intl/index.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/16/mariupol-ukraine-russia-seized-hospital

[Il Palazzo]

I know. That's not the point of contention.

[MaxTheFox]

Russia will be declared bankrupt today for not being able to pay it's foreign debt payments

Dear Federal subjects of Russia, I have a hint for you: Should you exit Russian Federation NOW, you will not need to repay debts and reparations.

Extremely few want independence. Especially in Siberia. It's never going to happen. Nor do I want it, my province would be poor as shit if it became independent.

If anarchists rally behind a cause, they have become organised and thus are no longer true anarchists.

I am a statist Christian socialist, so very much not an anarchist, but you misunderstand anarchism. It doesn't mean "no organization", it means "no ruler".

Surrendering territory to someone who started an unprovoked war in a blatant land grab would be an incredibly bad precedent to set. Putin has so very helpfully put the entire world into a "nobody wins" scenario in which no side can actually get something acceptable as a "victory" on terms the other side can also accept.

Exactly.

[Strongpoint]

Extremely few want independence. Especially in Siberia. It's never going to happen. Nor do I want it, my province would be poor as shit if it became independent.

Yeah, imagine how funny USSR collapse would sound in 1988... Never!


I don't know about your province, but the majority of subjects of the Russian Federation would benefit greatly from independence. Places like Sakhalin are colonies in anything but name and get robbed by Moscow getting a tiny portion of the cost of natural resources extracted there. They are also severely limited in trade with rich South Korea, Japan, China, and Alaska. Especially now, after sanctions

You may be anti-Putin but your views are so imperialist... Including the belief that you need to be a part of the Empire to be prosperous. Tell me, how will your region suffer from independence?

[Lord Shonus]

What is this, Strongpoint? Somebody asks you about your source for the very bogus-sounding claim of bunker buster bombs, and you respond with an article about a battle from two weeks ago?

The bombing of the Mariupol theater where at least a thousand civilians were sheltering (and where the word "children" was written in Russian in large letters outside) is very real. CNN, The Guardian.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/16/europe/ukraine-mariupol-bombing-theater-intl/index.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/16/mariupol-ukraine-russia-seized-hospital

The bombing of the theatre is not in question, nor is the fact that there is little doubt it was deliberate. The question was if a deep penetrator warhead was used - if it was an ordinary bomb the hope of survivors goes way up.

[EuchreJack]

Extremely few want independence. Especially in Siberia. It's never going to happen. Nor do I want it, my province would be poor as shit if it became independent.

Yeah, imagine how funny USSR collapse would sound in 1988... Never!


I don't know about your province, but the majority of subjects of the Russian Federation would benefit greatly from independence. Places like Sakhalin are colonies in anything but name and get robbed by Moscow getting a tiny portion of the cost of natural resources extracted there. They are also severely limited in trade with rich South Korea, Japan, China, and Alaska. Especially now, after sanctions

You may be anti-Putin but your views are so imperialist... Including the belief that you need to be a part of the Empire to be prosperous. Tell me, how will your region suffer from independence?

Well, Max believes in THE STATE, just not the Current State.  They want a regime change, but believes we all should be part of some massive government that will provide for all citizens.  So they probably believe in United Europe far more than United Russia, and ultimately would like to see United Earth.
The fact they have little regard for United States, and don't realize that United Eurasia would at best develop into the United States, means they're a hopelessly optimistic idealist in governmental theory.  So not an imperialist.  I'm sure Max will chime in to explain the errors in my analysis.

As for the part about their province being poor without the central government, that is probably just realpolitik.  If your province has little in resources and wealth, and has most services funded primarily from taxes elsewhere in the country, then the central government becomes a necessary evil.  I commend Max for realizing and admitting that fact, as most people don't, ESPECIALLY in poor rural provinces, where secessionist sediments tends to be rampant.

[Strongpoint]

Well, Max believes in THE STATE, just not the Current State.  They want a regime change, but believes we all should be part of some massive government that will provide for all citizens.  So they probably believe in United Europe far more than United Russia, and ultimately would like to see United Earth.

It is a complex and complicated matter. It isn't easy to tell if certain territories will do better (economically) being independent, being a part of some loose organization (EU) being a part of a federation (USA) or being under the control of a rigid centralized government. Different people will give different answers


But saying that regions of Russia will do worse should they secede from the current Russian Federation is laughable. Regions of Russia are treated like colonies with money being siphoned to Moscow (and, to a lesser extent, in a few other regions) and will benefit from becoming independent. Probably, they will benefit way more if the RF will become a democracy and a true federation but this is far less likely event than some regional elites deciding to go full seperatism.

[brewer bob]

According to BBC most people survived the theatre bombing. No mention of bunker busters.

Spoiler: from BBC live feed (click to show/hide)

Most people have survived attack on Mariupol theatre - MP
Hugo Bachega
BBC News, Lviv

More than 1,000 women and children are in the bomb shelter in Mariupol theatre, an MP from Mariupol has said.

The Ukrainian authorities say the theatre was attacked by Russians and the number of casualties is unknown.

MP Dmytro Gurin, whose parents are trapped in the city, told the BBC: "The [theatre] building is destroyed, we have more than 1,000 women and children in the bomb shelter, in the basement.

"Minutes ago we had an information that the bomb shelter survived and people there survived.

"We don't know yet whether we have wounded people, or killed people. But it looks like most of them have survived and are ok."

[MaxTheFox]

I don't know about your province, but the majority of subjects of the Russian Federation would benefit greatly from independence. Places like Sakhalin are colonies in anything but name and get robbed by Moscow getting a tiny portion of the cost of natural resources extracted there. They are also severely limited in trade with rich South Korea, Japan, China, and Alaska. Especially now, after sanctions

Bullshit. They only suffer because of the government mistreating them. They need autonomy, not independence. In addition they are low in population and often mineral resources. Not to mention they have an overwhelming Russian majority and basically no national identity of their own. Not to mention Vladivostok gets a ton of trade from Japan, at least it did before the sanctions, so you are deadass wrong.

You may be anti-Putin but your views are so imperialist... Including the belief that you need to be a part of the Empire to be prosperous. Tell me, how will your region suffer from independence?

By being underpopulated, being poor in natural resources, and being landlocked in the middle of Siberia. There's a difference between imperialism and realizing that Siberia is not viable as an independent state, much less as a loose collection of independent states. I want a free Russia, not a shattered Russia, the shards of which do not want independence. How the fuck is it imperialism, it's been Russian land for centuries. Siberia is dependent on Moscow due to its low population and lack of national identity. For privacy's sake I won't tell my region but it would be poor as shit if it went free, and would not benefit from independence in any way. It's very stupid to think we Siberians are being oppressed more than European Russians. Don't act like we want to be an independent state, because you clearly know nothing about Siberia.

Extremely few want independence. Especially in Siberia. It's never going to happen. Nor do I want it, my province would be poor as shit if it became independent.

Yeah, imagine how funny USSR collapse would sound in 1988... Never!


I don't know about your province, but the majority of subjects of the Russian Federation would benefit greatly from independence. Places like Sakhalin are colonies in anything but name and get robbed by Moscow getting a tiny portion of the cost of natural resources extracted there. They are also severely limited in trade with rich South Korea, Japan, China, and Alaska. Especially now, after sanctions

You may be anti-Putin but your views are so imperialist... Including the belief that you need to be a part of the Empire to be prosperous. Tell me, how will your region suffer from independence?

Well, Max believes in THE STATE, just not the Current State.  They want a regime change, but believes we all should be part of some massive government that will provide for all citizens.  So they probably believe in United Europe far more than United Russia, and ultimately would like to see United Earth.
The fact they have little regard for United States, and don't realize that United Eurasia would at best develop into the United States, means they're a hopelessly optimistic idealist in governmental theory.  So not an imperialist.  I'm sure Max will chime in to explain the errors in my analysis.

As for the part about their province being poor without the central government, that is probably just realpolitik.  If your province has little in resources and wealth, and has most services funded primarily from taxes elsewhere in the country, then the central government becomes a necessary evil.  I commend Max for realizing and admitting that fact, as most people don't, ESPECIALLY in poor rural provinces, where secessionist sediments tends to be rampant.

1. Not really, an united Earth isn't really viable currently. I'd prefer everywhere to have a democratic socialist government of course, but superstates, for most regions, are science fiction at least for now.
2. No I am pro-American, if only because America is nowhere near as oppressive as Russia. Lesser of two evils.
3. Yes. You summed up my refutation to Strongpoint's argument.

[Strongpoint]

By being underpopulated, being poor in natural resources, and being landlocked in the middle of Siberia. There's a difference between imperialism and realizing that Siberia is not viable as an independent state, much less as a loose collection of independent states. I want a free Russia, not a shattered Russia, the shards of which do not want independence. How the fuck is it imperialism, it's been Russian land for centuries. Siberia is dependent on Moscow due to its low population and lack of national identity. For privacy's sake I won't tell my region but it would be poor as shit if it went free, and would not benefit from independence in any way. What idiocy to think we Siberians are being oppressed more than European Russians. Don't act like we want to be an independent state, because you clearly know nothing about Siberia.

1) We conquered this land centuries ago! It should keep being a part of our country only because of that! Sure... It isn't imperialistic. When Great Britain went to war with those American colonies when those went for independence it wasn't imperialism! After all, those Englishmen in the New World spoke the same language and had no national identity of their own!

2) People living in colonies are being brainwashed into believing that being a colony is good... This is one of the ugliest forms of Imperialism mindset. Or you are one who benefits from the exploitation of Siberia.

3) Saying that residents of Moscow don't live better in ANY POSSIBLE WAY than residents of some Siberian village is ridiculous.

4) No area of Siberia is poor in natural resources. Not a single one. Some may be underdeveloped but it is totally different matter

5) Landlocked and being surrounded by hostile Russia does turn an independence attempt into a suicide. But larger chunks shouldn't have this problem

6) I know about Siberia more than you think. But... sure, there are little to no Siberians who talk about independent Siberian republics because. Because merely saying this is a criminal offense in Russia.

7) What WE are you talking about? Since when YOUR opinion matters anything? If your local lords will decide that it is beneficial for them to go indepent or join China or join Mongolia... Why will they ask you more than Putin does? Whatever decision people that matter will do they won't ask you. Why should they?

I love how you don't even consider indigenous peoples of Siberia when talking about the lack of a distinct Siberian identity.

[delphonso]

Perhaps you two should take this to DMs, or drop it totally, as it's not particularly on topic, and keeps getting increasingly personal.

[Strongpoint]

Perhaps you two should take this to DMs, or drop it totally, as it's not particularly on topic, and keeps getting increasingly personal.

It is closer to the topic than you think, it is an insight on political views of "non-Putin supporter" Russians. Views that are still very Imperialistic.

Besides, I, in a joking form, brought a very real (even if unlikely) possibility for this nightmare to end - the disintegration of the Russian Federation. Max jumped into the action defending the Holy Russia that will never stop existing.