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Author Topic: Maybe the WWIII thread (soon) (Ukraine)  (Read 68774 times)

Lord Shonus

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2022, 01:40:46 pm »

It's hard to see what's going on but I think Ukraine might do really well even without NATO military power. The Geneva conventions really limits what can be done in a war these days. Whatever firepower Russia has, only precision weapons can really be used if they don't want to be classified as war criminals/terrorists.

There's already reliable reports that Russia is using cluster-warhead IRBMs on cities and spearheading some of their assaults on Kiev with troops dressed in Ukranian uniforms. The simple nature of city fighting, particularly a city where residents have been standing in line to collect government-issued assault rifles or purchasing their own, means the Russians might have a pretty hard time taking control, but fear of looking bad isn't going to deter Russia at all.

Kiev might well look like Stalingrad by the time this is over.
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martinuzz

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2022, 02:34:24 pm »

Our Polish laborers are having to quit their jobs because they are being recalled en masse for military service.
This is a direct problem for many of our companies, especially in the transport and logistics sector. We have a LOT of Polish people working and living here in the Netherlands.
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da_nang

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2022, 03:11:51 pm »

Anonymous claims to have hacked the Russian Ministry of Defense and leaked the login credentials.
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heydude6

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #138 on: February 25, 2022, 03:12:06 pm »

PTW to watch WWIII. Hopefully I'll be able to add something interesting one day as a Ukrainian-blooded individual.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2022, 03:44:37 pm »

Bit belatedly, regarding the Battle of Snake Island, I get the feeling that the overkill of rolling up on a tiny island with a cruiser and a patrol boat probably does a lot to explain why the defenders would go out fighting. It seems like a display of disproportionate force to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if the defenders had every reason to be leery of falling into Russian captivity.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #140 on: February 25, 2022, 04:18:34 pm »

Seeing reports that Ukraine's president is planning to take the field personally if the siege of Kiev gets bad enough. There's also a widely circulated story of a young couple rushing their wedding so they could be married before joining the defense.

Whatever else this invasion produces, it has generated a bumper crop of Ukrainian heroic mythology.
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Yellow Pixel

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #141 on: February 25, 2022, 04:33:20 pm »

-
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 01:15:46 pm by Yellow Pixel »
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martinuzz

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #142 on: February 25, 2022, 04:42:35 pm »

Russian Ministry of Defense just threatened Finland and Sweden with political and military measures if they join NATO.
Finland and Sweden were present at the special NATO top meeting today as special guests.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 04:48:14 pm by martinuzz »
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nenjin

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #143 on: February 25, 2022, 04:51:55 pm »

Time to call their bluff. When they have enemies on every side, they're going to crumble and Putin is going to be found dead.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #144 on: February 25, 2022, 04:55:01 pm »

Russian Ministry of Defense just threatened Finland and Sweden with political and military measures if they join NATO.
Finland and Sweden were present at the special NATO top meeting today as special guests.

Once again I'm struggling to find that variant of the American Chopper argument meme, the one about Ukraine and NATO...
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MorleyDev

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #145 on: February 25, 2022, 05:03:44 pm »

Finland and Sweden are already EU member states.
EU member states have an obligation to help each other when attacked.

Provisions on the Common Security and Defence Policy - article 42 (7) of the TFEU
Quote
7. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.

So doing so would drag basically all of Europe in, which at that point *would* be WW3 so give the USA and UK no reason to stay out either.

There's a reason Putin wanted the EU to collapse beyond the economical.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 05:20:04 pm by MorleyDev »
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Magmacube_tr

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #146 on: February 25, 2022, 05:19:45 pm »

What even is Putin's goal here with this war against Ukraine? What is he trying to do? Has he gone mad or finally senile?

Is he trying to rally for something? Is this a ploy to keep himself in power? Is it just a mindless landgrab? Or does he really thinks Ukraine is some nest of evil in a delusional fantasy?

Like, I knew there was considerable tension between the two states, but this was all very sudden. I can't keep up with this.

And the "de-nazifying" quote. It makes me uneasy. Such an act of labeling can easily be abused to kill anyone he doesn't likes.

What is happening?!
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nenjin

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #147 on: February 25, 2022, 05:23:23 pm »

I think it's not a mindless land grab. But it's definitely a land grab.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #148 on: February 25, 2022, 05:23:45 pm »

Russian state media has been portraying the Ukranian government as right wing extremists seeking to genocide all Russian speakers in the country for awhile now. Just ignoring like...that they have one of the smallest far right parties in Europe, have entire cities that speak Russian as a first language and are fine, and their president is of Jewish descent (which far right nazis are generally not fond of). It's almost like claiming Canada are Nazis wants to genocide the French. But since when did reality get in the way of power hungry dictators?

The question is how much has the Russian government highers ups started to drink their own coolaid. Especially with the pandemic, they've basically been isolated away with just the inner circle. That...doesn't breed healthy thinking. There's indications they legitimately thought the Ukrainian military would react like the Afghan military did when the USA pulled out, and so are in 'backup plan' mode now that they're facing serious resistance.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 05:30:42 pm by MorleyDev »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Not the WWIII thread (yet) (Ukraine)
« Reply #149 on: February 25, 2022, 05:30:22 pm »

Sweden and (especially) Finland have a NATO-in-all-but-name position with the US as it is. An attack on either would probably bring the US in no matter what the rest of the EU does.  And if the USAF goes in, Russia's position degenerates rapidly.


For that matter, both Sweden and Finland have enough air forces to make a huge difference. Russia's military has not lived up to their bragging.


In more concrete news, some of the destroyed Russian vehicles that people have been posting pictures of on social media are being identified as command units for support formations like artillery. These are not supposed to be coming under direct fire.

What even is Putin's goal here with this war against Ukraine? What is he trying to do? Has he gone mad or finally senile?

Is he trying to rally for something? Is this a ploy to keep himself in power? Is it just a mindless landgrab? Or does he really thinks Ukraine is some nest of evil in a delusional fantasy?

Like, I knew there was considerable tension between the two states, but this was all very sudden. I can't keep up with this.

And the "de-nazifying" quote. It makes me uneasy. Such an act of labeling can easily be abused to kill anyone he doesn't likes.

What is happening?!

Part of it is that he seems to really be drinking his own Kool-aid, but there's more to it. Russia's badly mishandled COVID, the population is increasingly restive, and that's making both Putin and the oligarchy nervous. Internationally, Russia's influence is waning badly, to the point where their only real "weapon" against the rest of Europe is fossil fuel supplies. Europe is aggressively shifting to renewables because of climate concern, which will leave Russia in the dust. Nuclear weapons are of very limited use as a diplomatic "big stick".

Russia's other industries (particularly agriculture) are enough to make them a reasonably prosperous middle-of-the-road nation, but Putin isn't satisfied with that. He wants the Great Power status that the Russian Empire once held, or the former Soviet status as one of the world's two Superpowers. Within a few years, that dream and goal will be as dead as the Tsars as Russia becomes increasingly irrelevant on the world stage. The sort of reforms you'd need to genuinely reverse that trend would require dismantling the oligarchy, which will take Putin out.

The classic solution to this is a Short Victorious War. You leap on and crush a weak neighbor, proving to your citizens that you are a strong leader (and, hopefully, getting some loot to pump into the economy and provide a period of prosperity), show the rest of the world you're a force to be reckoned with, and give yourself time to build a new Big Stick or improve other parts of your situation.

Except that the war has proved it will not be Short even if it is eventually victorious, and the international response is "Slava Ukrainia!".
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