Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Il Palazzo]

What are you even talking about? The deadline is for the surrender of Mariupol, not Ukraine. And the past few days have seen the Russians steadily advancing on the city centre, so they probably think the defenders may finally consider laying down their arms.

[brewer bob]

In any case, Mariupol isn't giving into Russian demands:

Spoiler: from BBC live updates (click to show/hide)

Russia demand for Mariupol surrender rejected

Russia's Ministry of Defence has called on the embattled city of Mariupol to surrender by 05:00 local time (03:00 GMT) on Monday morning - a proposal that Ukraine has rejected.

According to Russia's state-owned Ria Novosti news agency, the ministry has said that it will open humanitarian corridors to allow residents to leave by 10:00 local time (08:00 GMT) if it receives a written response to the proposal.

Colonel-General Mikhail Mizintsev, the head of Russia's National Center for Defense Management, was quoted by Ria Novosti as saying that local officials would face a "military tribunal" if they don't agree to the surrender terms.

Early on Monday, Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister Iryna Vereshchuk said that there can be "no question" of surrender.

"We have already informed the Russian side about this," she was quoted as saying by Ukrainska Pravda.

On Saturday, Mariupol's City Council accused Russia of illegally taking "several thousand" residents to Russia by force.

[Eric Blank]

Sounds like the threat is that putin will pull a ghenghis khan and wipe out the entire city (and the hostages he's taken) if the defenders don't surrender.

I would assume starver is correct that he's getting desperate to see the city fall, and doesn't want the siege to go on much longer, and that could mean if the defenders don't surrender and keep fighting and the Russian forces might give up and pull back, but he'll probably pull back and then level the entire city from the air.

[Starver]

It may be 'just' Mariupol, but I'm suggesting that the logistics of continuing that attack is straining Russia's capability. Possibly a combination of supply problems and things like having any troops left who aren't becoming too aware/bothered that they're bombarding civilians rather than whatever mythical Nest Of Nazis thing they're dressing it all up the culural, civic, educational and health buildings up as.

And if they can't 'legitimately' win Mariupol (ideally with handy (imported) crowds cheering the 'liberators' from Mother Russia) then they run short of the kind of spin they need to feed the state-media to keep the masses on their side (or cow the other masses that aren'tbon their side, all those people losing johs/gigs/liberty for voicing contrary opinions).


I would not wish my worst enemy to be in Mariupol right this moment, but I doubt the situation gets better if 'signed over' to Russia, and everybody (on both sides) involved in any such talks will know it. It'll be bad if they don't surrender (increased bombardment from a distance, with whatever resources can do that without starting to see the whites of the residents' eyes) but that loses them the 'fair' victory and they need to explain more about 'suicidal buildings owing themselves up', en mass.

(PPE: Yeah, Eric the ninja has some of it. And, like I said, I'm extrapolating from my armchair here. The true history of the future may surprise me, it's hardly like I've got an accurate track-record here.)

[martinuzz]

Removed, sorry I was drunk

[Frumple]

Let's, uh. Not? Not. Start advocating genocide. What the actual fuck.

[martinuzz]

Yeah sorry. I am drunk and angry at the Russian nazis. They are the ones genociding people, so they should be prepared to bear the consequences of being nazis. The consequence is death. That is the reason the UN was formed. Prevent nazis from ever happening again, if needed, by killing them all. I exist by the virtue of the world killing nazis. Or I would have not been born, because my grandparents would have been killed in the gas chambers.
This includes people not protesting or otherwise trying to overthrow their nazi government. "Ich habe es nicht gewusst" is no longer a valid excuse.

[brewer bob]

Let's not lump all Russians into the same category, ok?

It's also not so simple to protest under an oppressive regime that has made any meaningful opposition impossible ages ago. You don't just "start protesting" in those conditions.

[Il Palazzo]

Some of you should probably lay off this thread for a while. You're whipping each other into a frenzy with increasingly unhinged hyperboles.

[martinuzz]

It's also not so simple to protest under an oppressive regime that has made any meaningful opposition impossible ages ago. You don't just "start protesting" in those conditions.

Bullshite. Turksih civilians stopped a miltary coup by attacking tanks barehanded. Don't be cowards. Attack and overwhelm the riot police.
Yeah. Many of you might die trying. But many more Russians will pointlessly die on the battlefield (or by anal rape in Siberia) if you don't. Better to die for a just cause.

My call to arms might seem horrible but I am just trying to save lives.

[lemon10]

Agreeing with Palazzo and Frumple, you should take a break from the thread for now Martinuzz. You seem like a cool dude, and flat out advocating for genocide is both really uncool and the type of thing that could get you banned.

[martinuzz]

As far as I am aware I did not advocate genocide. I advocated the death of people not revolting against nazis, which has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.

But okay, I'll take a break from this. It just hits me too hard as a descendant of the holocaust. My grandmother (who raised me), her sister and their mother where the only ones of about 90 family members who survived the gas chambers. We don't have family parties because, there's no family left to party with. The death of nazis is my raison d'être. Russia calling Ukraine nazis just ... I dunno man.. It's just too much. It enrages me beyond reason, for which I do apologize.

[brewer bob]

Sorry for fanning the flames on my part.

[martinuzz]

Also, sorry Max. I shouldn't have said that to you. I know you are one of the good gals. I'm just angry, scared, and confused.

[MaxTheFox]

Yeah sorry. I am drunk and angry at the Russian nazis. They are the ones genociding people, so they should be prepared to bear the consequences of being nazis. The consequence is death. That is the reason the UN was formed. Prevent nazis from ever happening again, if needed, by killing them all. I exist by the virtue of the world killing nazis. Or I would have not been born, because my grandparents would have been killed in the gas chambers.
This includes people not protesting or otherwise trying to overthrow their nazi government. "Ich habe es nicht gewusst" is no longer a valid excuse.

Do you think it's that simple? Not to mention my city never had any protests because it's thousands of kilometers away from Moscow. I refuse to protest when my protest would change nothing and end with me in jail. Do you think I have no sense of self-preservation?

As far as I am aware I did not advocate genocide. I advocated the death of people not revolting against nazis, which has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.

But okay, I'll take a break from this. It just hits me too hard as a descendant of the holocaust. My grandmother (who raised me), her sister and their mother where the only ones of about 90 family members who survived the gas chambers. We don't have family parties because, there's no family left to party with. The death of nazis is my raison d'être. Russia calling Ukraine nazis just ... I dunno man.. It's just too much. It enrages me beyond reason, for which I do apologize.

Which is the absolute majority of Russia because we're scared. Killing 144 million people would place you above Mao and Hitler combined.

Also, sorry Max. I shouldn't have said that to you. I know you are one of the good gals. I'm just angry, scared, and confused.

Apology accepted but think about the shit you're saying before posting. It's insulting. Westerners saying shit like this is why some Russians turn to Putin.
Protests will probably appear again at a greater intensity if/when Russia loses in Ukraine or starts losing massively.