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[Svarte Troner]

There’s nothing “unique” in the long arc of Russian culture that caused the Bucha massacre or whatever atrocity will be uncovered next. To say so is not to issue apologia for Russia, but to understand how these tragedies unfold, and to realize that no people is immune from becoming a perpetrator.

Nationalism is a cult that reveres murder.

[MaxTheFox]

How so? Are you saying every Russian is evil or that Mordor had actual nice habitants?

He really hates Russia, not just the current government, but the concept of Russia, apparently. Which, to be entirely honest, is cringe and if you go that way then you should also hate America, China, etc in all of their incarnations because they all did plenty of horrible things in their history.

This is not apologism for Putin, mind. But this is Balkan-tier posturing.

[The_Explorer]

At this point, either russians who don't support this fight back (which despite some protests, isn't much in comparison to all russians) or they should face the gulag and have their entire nation collapse into nothingness and hopefully something better comes out of it. Or russians do nothing, which means they actually support what is going on (despite them saying they don't) and they are all guilty of mass genocide. The world would be better without russians at this point if they don't all come together to fight what is going on inside their nation

[MaxTheFox]

At this point, either russians who don't support this fight back (which despite some protests, isn't much in comparison to all russians) or they should face the gulag and have their entire nation collapse into nothingness and hopefully something better comes out of it. Or russians do nothing, which means they actually support what is going on (despite them saying they don't) and they are all guilty of mass genocide. The world would be better without russians at this point if they don't all come together to fight what is going on inside their nation

If only it was that easy. Do you realize that the penalty for publicly criticizing the government is 15 years of jail? If everyone else was protesting then I'd protest too but at this point it would be pointless. It's unfortunately a "the key is behind the lock" situation, and even those who are against the government are powerless to stop it. I don't support the government, obviously, but getting myself arrested, tortured, and jailed helps absolutely nobody. That's the reason why there aren't more protests, and yes it sucks. There isn't a critical mass of unrest.

"The world would be better without Russians" is dangerously close to genocidal rhetoric, ironically.

[brewer bob]

A recent text from Crimethinc had some points from Russian anarchists why they believe protests are not happening.

In the course of preparing this text, we communicated with anarchists around Russia about the limits that the anti-war movement reached in its first phase. These are the factors that they believe prevented the protests from going further:

• The extraordinarily high ratio of risk to gain in participating in the protests. “Gain” would include any changes in the situation influenced by the protests, or a significant success in the clashes with the police. Neither has occurred.
• The centralization of the protests. People had gotten used to [Alexei] Navalny [a dissident politician, now imprisoned] or his team calling for people to go to the streets. This produced a lack of creativity and independence on the part of the protesters. Now, people are waiting for a new Navalny to appear to rally people to the streets.
• Many people have seen that even the smallest attempts to protest often end in arrest, and they fear further extra-legal persecution targeting them via their employment, university studies, family life, and the like. People are tired of being arrested and sitting at the station at risk of being tortured, receiving a fine or fifteen days in prison, in return for almost no visible gain.
• Many people are disappointed in peaceful protest tactics. Some let off steam in chats, where they can write what bothers them and then forget about it.
• Though we do not blame people for this, we must also take into account that a large number of people left Russia early in the war, either because they faced persecution or because they suspected that there would be no better time to escape. This included a high proportion of people who would otherwise be organizing. Now, due to a lack of long-term structures and confidence that, if they remained, they would have a sufficient number of comrades and opportunities to organize, they are not here.
• Simple apathy and acceptance of what is going on, inflected to varying extents by fear.
• Many protesters have been demoralized by the large number of Russian people who support the invasion and by visual dominance of pro-war propaganda in Russian society. For now, unless you really follow all the news and don’t have serious financial issues, it is still possible to tell oneself “everything will be alright, it’s not that bad.” Russian propaganda has served its purpose: many people believe Russia is simply saving Donbas from Nazis.
• Lacking a concrete strategy. Without concrete goals, the demand to “Stop the war” is pointless. Many people feel that the government won’t ever listen to them, and protests have not radicalized (yet).

[MaxTheFox]

Yeah that's the point I was trying to make. It's not because all Russians are fascists, it's just that the opposition is scared as hell and there's no strong "face of the opposition", besides possibly Navalny, who is now in jail.

[Ganondworf]

At this point, either russians who don't support this fight back (which despite some protests, isn't much in comparison to all russians) or they should face the gulag and have their entire nation collapse into nothingness and hopefully something better comes out of it. Or russians do nothing, which means they actually support what is going on (despite them saying they don't) and they are all guilty of mass genocide. The world would be better without russians at this point if they don't all come together to fight what is going on inside their nation

While I have ranted against my government for not helping enough, I do not think that every Russian who does not stand up against their government should be (insert very strong opinion here).

I would like to compare this to our laws against failure to render assistance. While I could be prosecuted for not helping people in life threatening circumstances, the law does not expect me to risk my own life or limb to do so.
What if [Russian person] does not risk only his life/years in prison/health, but also that of his family/friends/acquaintances? If I would ever be in that situation, I can tell you I honestly would need very good incentives before I acted.

I also very much understand the dilemma. If no one takes a risk and speaks up, then nothing will change.

There is the poem by German pastor Martin Niemöller about his cowardice in facing the nazis:

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

But still I can not criticize those russians that fail to stand up too harshly

[Strongpoint]

How so? Are you saying every Russian is evil or that Mordor had actual nice habitants?

I am saying that Russian society is deeply, deeply immoral. Mordor IS a fitting comparison because they hate everything that is outside of it like orcs of Mordor do. If you think that Ukrainians are somewhat special, you are wrong. They want to do this to the rest of the world. They also hate each other but their hate towards outsiders is stronger.

And small % of some good Russians make no difference whatsoever. If they'll poof out of existence tomorrow, Russia will stay exactly the same.

Correction: They will stop contributing to Russian economy, reducing its ability to hurt the world.

[MaxTheFox]

How so? Are you saying every Russian is evil or that Mordor had actual nice habitants?

I am saying that Russian society is deeply, deeply immoral. Mordor IS a fitting comparison because they hate everything that is outside of it like orcs of Mordor do. If you think that Ukrainians are somewhat special, you are wrong. They want to do this to the rest of the world. They also hate each other but their hate towards outsiders is stronger.

And small % of some good Russians make no difference whatsoever. If they'll poof out of existence tomorrow, Russia will stay exactly the same.

Correction: They will stop contributing to Russian economy, reducing its ability to hurt the world.

This is blatantly untrue and it just shows how much of a bigot you are.

I sincerely hope you, and people like you, never come into any sort of power in any capacity.

[The_Explorer]

All I see is people making excuses why they don't do anything for those inside russia. Most civilized places for example, if you are next to someone who murdered someone but don't report it or do anything, then you are also guilty. Or same if someone is assaulting a child, it still makes you an accomplice. If russians don't do anything, they can just be treated as nothing and sent to containment camps and away from people so they can't harm anyone again. They are a miserable lot, and again, it be a lot better without a bunch of genocidal maniac russians around

[Vector]

Having visited, I can promise you that it’s not Mordor 9_9 Multiple strangers yelled at my parents to take better care of me. Just random people on the street.

We visited a children’s library and the chief librarian asked what on earth we were doing there and then painstakingly showed us his collection of special books, including a book which had survived the siege of Leningrad.

Russian fatalism is real, yes. There is a whole Wikipedia article on poshlost.

This is too far, the genocidal talk. We still have a Germany, and a United States. Trust me, I’ve studied and the overwhelming majority of Germans didn’t stand up when it counted, either. Instead 8.5 million Soviet troops died stopping Hitler on the Eastern front, and proceeded to roll through Germany. The western side of the conflict was primarily resolved by them.

Clearly “something needs to be done.” But this is only at its beginning. Who knows what happens next.

[Random_Dragon]

Basically this. This back and forth of calling for genocide needs to stop. The Russian government has already made it clear it wants nothing less than the genocide of Ukraine, but calling for returning the favor isn't the answer. Those responsible need to be brought to justice, one way or another. But if the lesson being learned here is "genocide is okay if someone else tried it first" rather than "no, genocide is still not okay, period" then you're acting no better than the Russian war criminals.

[KittyTac]

All I see is people making excuses why they don't do anything for those inside russia. Most civilized places for example, if you are next to someone who murdered someone but don't report it or do anything, then you are also guilty. Or same if someone is assaulting a child, it still makes you an accomplice. If russians don't do anything, they can just be treated as nothing and sent to containment camps and away from people so they can't harm anyone again. They are a miserable lot, and again, it be a lot better without a bunch of genocidal maniac russians around

That is simply not how authoritarian regimes work. It's just naive. Those who call for Russian genocide are all just as bad as Putin and his supporters. Shame on you.

[LordBaal]

This kind of speech is specially infuriating. I dislike blank statement like that. A whole country is evil... sure dude, bet you never had a boot on your neck, breathed tear gas, got beaten, shot at or had friends or family dissapear thanks to trying to stand up against a corrupt mob of a goverment.

Its like all these kids believing socialism will work, with all the comfort and luxuries of a free market while never knowing what truly hunger or depair is.

By your logic I'm a evil man because while no Russian Im in one of the few countries which ruling jerks wholehearthedly support Putin. Ask around here if I'm a evil genocidal maniac, if at least a single pal here agrees I'll eat my fucking hat and concede you are rigth.

[Strongpoint]

How so? Are you saying every Russian is evil or that Mordor had actual nice habitants?

I am saying that Russian society is deeply, deeply immoral. Mordor IS a fitting comparison because they hate everything that is outside of it like orcs of Mordor do. If you think that Ukrainians are somewhat special, you are wrong. They want to do this to the rest of the world. They also hate each other but their hate towards outsiders is stronger.

And small % of some good Russians make no difference whatsoever. If they'll poof out of existence tomorrow, Russia will stay exactly the same.

Correction: They will stop contributing to Russian economy, reducing its ability to hurt the world.

This is blatantly untrue and it just shows how much of a bigot you are.

I sincerely hope you, and people like you, never come into any sort of power in any capacity.

Your people murder my people. By thousands. By tens of thousands. It is a fact.
If you had any decency, you wouldn't lecture me. You would ask for an apology (But why would you? You are good! Those Putinists aren't true Russians!)

Yep, I am an evil Nazi, It is good that Russia is cleansing Ukraine from the people like me so we'll never get into power! As soon as you feel your Holy Mother Russia insulted, you go for the very same rethoric as Putin. Bad Ukrainian bigots\nazies should be under control

Even if you think that my words are untrue and too harsh, then, if you had any empathy, you would assume that isn't because I am some kind of bigot but because I have... you know... REASONS. Like seeing the lives of my generation destroyed as well as the lives of a generation of my nephews.

Even if the war will end tomorrow (it won't, at best there will be a temporary de-escalation) Ukraine will still need many years to recover economically, the whole nation (including children) will have PTSD, and the dead... they'll stay dead.

So, with all due respect, следуй в кильваторе русского корабля