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Probably a good idea.

1 (16.7%)

Not really necessary.

2 (33.3%)

I don't play Berserker so I don't really have an opinion.

3 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 6

[Smoke Mirrors]

Come to think of it, that's another good point. nobody but Irine had AOE. is there something with the system that makes getting AOE hard?

For most servants besides Casters, it’s only on NPs. As stated, working out if I should allow all servants an active ability, which would allow players to pick an AOE of at least multi target attack if they want to.

[BlackPaladin99]

So what if i put the bonus to ten?

[Smoke Mirrors]

So what if i put the bonus to ten?

I was going to suggest that. We can do the next test with that and see if it works.

I apologize that things are changing and things that were acceptable are being changed, and I understand that can be frustrating, but that was always part of this set up, as it’s meant as a test to determine what mechanics work and what don’t. I’ve never created a system before so I can’t tell what’s good and not without testing, so things change after testing.

[Lenglon]

It's literally titled Mechanics Test. Anyone that gets upset about your experimenting with and changing up mechanics is wrong. Also, nobody has even hinted that they're doing that. It's all in your head sir. Please stop hallucinating so I don't have to call the nice men in white suits please thank you.

[Failbird105]

Come to think of it, that's another good point. nobody but Irine had AOE. is there something with the system that makes getting AOE hard?

Yeah, simple fact is that it's kinda hard to get AoE through non-NP means if you aren't a Caster. There's only one skill I know of that would allow such a thing, that being Kingproteas "Area Crushing", which lets you target an area for an attack rather than a single entity, and that skill never actually even gets used.

Come to think of it... would possibly be a good idea for Ievdoka, "Area Bombing" maybe, something specific to while she's in a plane.

[Smoke Mirrors]

Right, I decided to officially permit 1 active ability for each servant, but I’m not opening those yet as I’m still figuring out how they work, such as if I want them to be similar to spells, if I want them to be more like skills in GO, with no cost but cool down, or what. We may not even have them until after 1.2. Just posting this to let you know I plan to include them and also to post the Dragon Tooth Warrior sheet.

Dragon Tooth Warrior
Rank 1
Agility C
Strength C
Endurance D
Mana D

[BlackPaladin99]

Just thought Of something.  Instead of reducing my damage bonus, could we remove the - to the enemy’s stats in my noble phantasm?

[Smoke Mirrors]

Just thought Of something.  Instead of reducing my damage bonus, could we remove the - to the enemy’s stats in my noble phantasm?

To be honest, that didn’t end up factoring in much in this match, and as stated, even if your opponent rolls the best defense they can, your +damage is applied after that is calculated, which is part of the issue, but if I make it part of damage calculations it would probably be a bigger issue. Essentially, even if your roll only 1 success for damage, and your opponent rolls double success for endurance, you’d still deal 70 damage thanks to your damage buffs, and that’s with divinity being changed. That’s more than a servant who put only 1 point less than you into strength deals if they roll a critical for strength and the opponent fails both endurance rolls.

[Failbird105]

Yeah it's hard to overstate just how big Nuada's damage is. John Henry was not only built entirely for damage, he was built so much for damage that his damage has active detrimental effects on him, and yet Nuada does the same damage with his basic normal attacks that John Henry does with his 80 MANA COST NP.

Let me repeat that: it costs John Henry 80 MANA with his Noble Phantasm to do as much damage as Nuada can do with every single attack, on a character who is entirely and solely built around killing one single target better than anyone ever and then fucking dying.

[Lenglon]

Oh, I know, lets compare Nuada to Rama (the premade Saber)!

now, Rama has the super-high-level divinity bonus, but you're talking about reworking that, so I'm going to strip him of it for this sim.

and since I think Nuada is OP, I'll give Rama the first turn, to see if stacking the deck slightly in Rama's favor changes anything.

Now then, Rama uses his NP on turn 1, to give him maximum firepower. spends 50 mana (dropping to 30), and automatically deals 60 damage to Nuada. Rama's PS blessing of martial arts activates, adding another 15 damage, dealing a total of 75 damage, automatically, on turn 1. (if he had his divinity, that would be an automatic 100 damage, holy crap, um, maybe this premade is broken too? GM!!)

Nuada gets to respond, and starts off with 25 mana, his passive activates, giving him +10, so he has 35 mana, I would have him use his NP, but he doesn't have enough mana to do that. wow, okay, welp, Nuada swings anyway, agi vs agi to hit. b + 4 vs a, so nuada has to roll (equal to or) under a 12 on a 10 sided die to succeed and rama has to roll (equal to or) under a 10 on a 10 sided die to dodge? what? I think they both get automatic successes? is that right? that can't be right. I'm going to pretend it's right. so..... what. I'm going to pretend it hits and just ignore the rest because what.

so Nuada hits, roll for damage, strength b vs endurance b.  lets say Rama and Nuada both get 1 success because fk math atm, I'm hungry. So Nuada does 40 damage base, +20 from his passive, cut in half by rama making 1 end roll. so nuada does 30 damage to Rama, Rama is down to 0 mana. Rama's passive that is identical to Battle Continuation triggers. Rama is now at 10 mana.

Rama's turn. Rama's passive that is identical to Nuada's triggers. Rama now is at 20 mana. Nuada is at 35 mana, and I'm hungry. fk this, fk math, hits, damage = (50+15)/2 = 37.5. Nuada at 0, Battle continuation triggers. Nuada at 10.

Nuada, now at 20, identical turn to last turn. Rama's dead.

Both of those characters are stupid, rocket tag is bad, Nuada > Rama OR Noble Phantasms kill yourself. I think it's the latter and that both are OP, I'm leaving for food. brb.
edit: am eating now, thinking better again. I think that Nuada is perfectly reasonable when compared to the sample character Rama. I think that because mana is health, using spells and Noble Phantasms is problematic due to self-damage.

also, if we play out Nuada vs Irine, i think it goes like this: Irine uses NP, Nuada takes 10 damage, has to make opposed Str rolls, B vs E, Nuada wins easy. Nuada heals 10 damage (now at 100) Uses NP (now at 50), hits, no crit, irine gets 1 end success, Nuada does 50 damage. Irine is at exactly zero and doesn't have battle continuation. I THINK you need at least a little overkill to actually take someone down, so I'll keep Irine alive but it's iffy. Irine's turn, I'll be generous and give her full power passive +25 mana to put her at 25 mana. Nuada takes 20 damage (now at 30), and has to make opposed str rolls B with bonuses vs D, Nuada wins hands down. Nuada's turn, heals 10 (now at 40) and hits Irine again for the same damage as last turn. 25-50 = -25, Irine's dead, if divinity still added damage, Nuada would have killed her on turn 1 because of her own NP doing an automatic 50 damage to herself. Also, over the course of the fight, Nuada did more damage to himself by using his NP than Irine did over the entire thing.

regarding Nuada's NP. lets compare it to a burst damage NP for a second. if he had a straight-up Excalibur NP, it would deal 100 damage for 50 mana AND 1 turn's action.
with Nuada's NP, it does 40 damage / turn for 50 mana and ZERO turn's actions.

I actually don't have any problems with letting him keep it at full power, because he is paying the mana price for that kind of damage, and it takes 3 separate hits for it to outpace a straight-up excalibur. I think you should just make it take his entire turn to activate. time is a very valuable resource. case in point, look at Irine's NP. IF you pretend that it starts at A-rank power, it'd be stupidly OP. Why is it not a problem? because it costs a ton of time to get there. I think you can let BP keep the +40 damage for Nuada that he likes so much, just charge him a time cost for it.

[BlackPaladin99]

Oh, I know, lets compare Nuada to Rama (the premade Saber)!

now, Rama has the super-high-level divinity bonus, but you're talking about reworking that, so I'm going to strip him of it for this sim.

and since I think Nuada is OP, I'll give Rama the first turn, to see if stacking the deck slightly in Rama's favor changes anything.

Now then, Rama uses his NP on turn 1, to give him maximum firepower. spends 50 mana (dropping to 30), and automatically deals 60 damage to Nuada. Rama's PS blessing of martial arts activates, adding another 15 damage, dealing a total of 75 damage, automatically, on turn 1. (if he had his divinity, that would be an automatic 100 damage, holy crap, um, maybe this premade is broken too? GM!!)

Nuada gets to respond, and starts off with 25 mana, his passive activates, giving him +10, so he has 35 mana, I would have him use his NP, but he doesn't have enough mana to do that. wow, okay, welp, Nuada swings anyway, agi vs agi to hit. b + 4 vs a, so nuada has to roll (equal to or) under a 12 on a 10 sided die to succeed and rama has to roll (equal to or) under a 10 on a 10 sided die to dodge? what? I think they both get automatic successes? is that right? that can't be right. I'm going to pretend it's right. so..... what. I'm going to pretend it hits and just ignore the rest because what.

so Nuada hits, roll for damage, strength b vs endurance b.  lets say Rama and Nuada both get 1 success because fk math atm, I'm hungry. So Nuada does 40 damage base, +20 from his passive, cut in half by rama making 1 end roll. so nuada does 30 damage to Rama, Rama is down to 0 mana. Rama's passive that is identical to Battle Continuation triggers. Rama is now at 10 mana.

Rama's turn. Rama's passive that is identical to Nuada's triggers. Rama now is at 20 mana. Nuada is at 35 mana, and I'm hungry. fk this, fk math, hits, damage = (50+15)/2 = 37.5. Nuada at 0, Battle continuation triggers. Nuada at 10.

Nuada, now at 20, identical turn to last turn. Rama's dead.

Both of those characters are stupid, rocket tag is bad, Nuada > Rama OR Noble Phantasms kill yourself. I think it's the latter and that both are OP, I'm leaving for food. brb.
edit: am eating now, thinking better again. I think that Nuada is perfectly reasonable when compared to the sample character Rama. I think that because mana is health, using spells and Noble Phantasms is problematic due to self-damage.

also, if we play out Nuada vs Irine, i think it goes like this: Irine uses NP, Nuada takes 10 damage, has to make opposed Str rolls, B vs E, Nuada wins easy. Nuada heals 10 damage (now at 100) Uses NP (now at 50), hits, no crit, irine gets 1 end success, Nuada does 50 damage. Irine is at exactly zero and doesn't have battle continuation. I THINK you need at least a little overkill to actually take someone down, so I'll keep Irine alive but it's iffy. Irine's turn, I'll be generous and give her full power passive +25 mana to put her at 25 mana. Nuada takes 20 damage (now at 30), and has to make opposed str rolls B with bonuses vs D, Nuada wins hands down. Nuada's turn, heals 10 (now at 40) and hits Irine again for the same damage as last turn. 25-50 = -25, Irine's dead, if divinity still added damage, Nuada would have killed her on turn 1 because of her own NP doing an automatic 50 damage to herself. Also, over the course of the fight, Nuada did more damage to himself by using his NP than Irine did over the entire thing.

regarding Nuada's NP. lets compare it to a burst damage NP for a second. if he had a straight-up Excalibur NP, it would deal 100 damage for 50 mana AND 1 turn's action.
with Nuada's NP, it does 40 damage / turn for 50 mana and ZERO turn's actions.

I actually don't have any problems with letting him keep it at full power, because he is paying the mana price for that kind of damage, and it takes 3 separate hits for it to outpace a straight-up excalibur. I think you should just make it take his entire turn to activate. time is a very valuable resource. case in point, look at Irine's NP. IF you pretend that it starts at A-rank power, it'd be stupidly OP. Why is it not a problem? because it costs a ton of time to get there. I think you can let BP keep the +40 damage for Nuada that he likes so much, just charge him a time cost for it.

+1 to this.

[Smoke Mirrors]

Right, just some notes, since the +20 is added after damage is calculated, it would be 40 damage, not 30. Second, I never said I’d remove the +40 on the NP, at least for now, I said the + on his skill was too much as John Henry had the same +20 damage, but it cost 10 mana every attack to use, so +20 with no cost was unfair, but I was ok with reducing it to +10. Also yes, making it cost a turn sounds good.

Any other particular edits or questions needed before 1.2?

[BlackPaladin99]

I don’t think so?

[Failbird105]

Okay here's a thought: I feel like the problem isn't so much the high damage, as it is the low health. Since mana is both health and spellcasting energy, it makes Servants incredibly fragile. You need to pop your NP right away in order to beat the enemy before they reduce your mana to lower than you need to cast it.

So I propose that Servants specifically(and maybe bosses) get double the amount of Mana from the stat. I feel like it'd be a good way to ensure that Battle Continuation isn't the only way for a fight between Servants to last more than 2 turns.

Also, gonna be honest, I'm realizing from my calculations that John Henry has an awful NP. Assuming maximum damage from his NP at its minimum rank, he just spent 40 mana to deal 80 damage. Period. Meanwhile assuming those exact same conditions he would have done 100 damage for only 10 mana by attacking normally.
Only assuming the enemy rolls critical on damage resistance does his NP at D-Rank(so 40 mana cost) deal more damage than a regular attack, and it's only 10 more.(40 vs 50)

The other two levels meanwhile, do 20 and 60 more damage than a normal attack at best respectively and give the enemy a fairly hefty endurance debuff, but give John Henry an even heftier debuff to match. I feel like paying 80 mana and crippling yourself should be worth more than 160 damage and a -4 to endurance rolls for the enemy.

[BlackPaladin99]

Wait, don’t d-rank NPs only cost 20 mana?