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[MCreeper]

After a very long break we are starting another round!

Game: Bay12GamesRound505
Map: Valanis, TheFinn Revision
Mods: None
Era: Middle
Hosting Period: 30h
Score Graphs: Off
Hall of Fame Size: 15
Research: Standard
Random Starting Research: Off
Global Slots: 7
Story Events: All
Renaming: On
Victory: Thrones of Ascension
Ascension points required for victory: 12
Number of level 1 thrones: 0
Number of level 2 thrones: 0
Number of level 3 thrones: 6
Cataclysm: Disabled
All other settings on default


Player list:

• MCreeper - Ind, Mormigol
• a1s - Abysia, Scribbles
• USEC_OFFICER - C'tis, Obligatory Shrek References
• E. Albright - Ys, Rounaez-Vamm Gloar
• EuchreJack - Mictlan, EuchreJack
• Criptfeind - Na'Ba, The Name of God
• Il Palazzo - Phlegra, Cockheaded Trouser Snake
• kriv02 - Agartha, current mood:useless bisexual

Spoiler: How does PBEM work? (click to show/hide)

• First of all, you need to download any non-standard map and/or mods we're using (links will be provided if we decide to use one), and put the files into the map and mod folders of your dom5 installation respectively (you can open the game folders from the in-game options menu).
• Then go to the options menu and enable the mod. (if applicable)
• Next use the pretender creation tool in the game tools menu to create a pretender and send the file(to be found in your /dominions5/savedgames/newlords; named <your_nation_era_number.2h>, where number is most likely "0" if it's the only pretender you've created so far for this nation.) to "pretenders [at ] llamaserver [dot ] net" with the game name as the subject.
  Game name will most likely be "Bay12GamesRound5XX [where XX is the Bay12 round count]".

You'll be receiving .trn files from llama server, which you should put into a {dom5dir}/savedgames/{whatevernameyouwant}/
After finishing your moves, a new .2h file will appear in that folder, which you should send to the same address from which you've received your .trn file.

You can always view the game status (including such information as turn submission deadline, and stalling data) at
http://www.llamaserver.net/index.cgi
by searching for the game name on the list.

Spoiler: Previous Bay12 rounds (click to show/hide)

Dom3:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7&7.5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15
Dom4:
4.01, 4.02, 4.03, 4.04, 4.05, 4.06, 4.07, 4.08, 4.09, 4.10, 4.11B, 4.12, 4.13, 4.14, 4.15, 4.16, 4.15, 4.17, 4.18, 4.19, 4.20, 4.21, 4.22, 4.23, 4.24, 4.25, 4.26, 4.27, 4.28
Dom5:
5.01, 5.02, 5.03, 5.04

[Il Palazzo]

Ah, shit. Let better judgement be reserved for better times.
I'm in with Phlegra.

[Criptfeind]

Graphs were that way because i copied them from previous round without looking. Of course they are off.
How about Snerdryn for a map? Should be fine for now maybe eight players.

I'm fine with Pymous maps. Hopefully we'll end up with the right number of water nations, but I guess it's not the end of the world if we don't. (so long as we don't end up with too many )

[E. Albright]

I'm NOT fine with Pymous maps. I love how they look, but their load capacity is lower than their province count suggests b/c they're overconnected. They date to the era of Dom4 maps where maximizing connectivity was considered the ne plus ultra of map design, and it really hurts them. The mean distance b/tw two provinces is lowered when you raise connectivity, with the end result of reducing the space b/tw nations to an alarming degree.

I'm also not willing to pick a nation w/o knowing what map we're going to be on, as I'm looking at water and coastal nations fairly closely since Ind, Na'Ba, and Phlegra are gone.

(Loading a test game on Snerdryn at 7 + 1 got me every nation with at least 1 capital 3 spaces away (aka 1 space b/tw cap circles) and some with as many as 3 like that. It'd be pretty cramped, and there's a real chance of effectively losing on turn 1.)

[Il Palazzo]

I'm not terribly married to the idea of playing any nation, so if anyone wants Phlegra, just say the word.

[E. Albright]

Nah, it's fine. I don't like the fluff on them, and frankly the MA version is the most boring version of that nation. I'll figure something else out.

It's probably slightly larger than ideal, but if there's a broad preference for Pymous maps, what about Edowyn? It's not quite as overconnected as most of the other ones, not least b/c it's only EW-wrap.

[EuchreJack]

It wouldn't be a B12 Dominions game without E. Atlantis, so hopefully we can sort out the water thing.

[Criptfeind]

I've got to admit, I like maps with high connectivity and closeness between players. The standard for randomly generated maps in the discord community (in games with 16 provinces per players, IE: Medium sized) seems to be 3 provinces between capitals with 4 neighbors. Even more connections then your cramped test game. And I like those maps, because with so many close neighbors your decisions are ultimately driven by the gamestate and your own determination of whats best and how you navigate it instead of relying on geography to dictate the flow of the game. You don't end up in situations where someone gets a particularly poor or good start (past who they draw as their neighbors) and the game tumbles from there, or where the game leader can't be stopped from achieving victory because the runner ups are too far away to hinder them unless the map is very big.

That said, that's just like, my opinion man. And I've certainly heard enough people say things that echo your statements. I also don't really mind "less connected" maps, or whatever, and if you want to suggest a map more to your tastes, I think I'd be fine with most so long as it's not wildly poorly connected. Looking at you Isles of Nippon'ia cave system.

[E. Albright]

It's really not true that high-connectivity maps give even starts though. They really don't unless the map is balanced for the number of players, and that's very often not true when you're dealing with the numbers recommended for popular maps. E.g., here's a test on Snerdyn with 8 land players:

Scelaria: 2x3, 4x4, 1x6
Ashdod: 3x3, 3x4, 1x6
Man: 3x3, 1x4, 2x6
Uruk: 4x3, 2x4, 1x6
Ctis: 3x3, 2x4, 2x6
Ermor: 4x3, 2x4, 1x6
Shin: 4x3, 2x4, 1x6
Arco: 4x3, 2x4, 1x6

Fairly even, right? Here's the next one with 7+1 (plus I remembered to set thrones this time):

Naz: neighbors 1x2, 2x3, 3x4, 2x5 / thrones 1x0, 1x2, 2x3, 1x5, 1x6
Mari: 1x2, 2x3, 2x4, 1x5, 1x6 / 1x0, 2x1, 1x4, 1x5, 1x6
Asph: 1x2, 2x3, 2x4, 1x5, 1x6 / 2x2, 2x4, 1x5, 1x7
Xib: 6x4, 1x5 / 1x2, 3x4, 2x5 
Ash: 3x3, 2x4, 1x5, 1x6 / 1x1, 1x3, 2x4, 1x5, 1x6
Pan: 3x3, 1x4, 3x5 / 1x1, 1x2, 1x3, 1x4, 1x5, 1x6
Rhy: 1x2, 1x3, 1x4, 3x5, 1x6 / 1x1, 1x2, 1x4, 3x5
Mach: 3x3, 2x4, 3x5 / 1x2, 2x4, 3x5

4 of 8 have touching cap circles. 2 of 8 have thrones in their cap circles. Xib by far has the best start even before we look at the thrones, but it did better there too. And mind you, since there's an UW nation in this set, the engine had more room to spread nations out in this case yet did far worse balancing them. This actually is quite in keeping w/my experience with dense maps. Better and worse starts are certainly possible - the margin of error is eliminated and it's much harder for the engine to consistently evenly space players at the province counts per capita these maps advertise themselves as being designed for simply because the max distance b/tw any two points on the map is necessarily smaller.

High connectivity also minimizes or eliminates consideration from ritual range, and dramatically impacts dominion spread dynamics. It's not that geography doesn't dictate the game - geography is sidelined or eliminated as a strategic consideration. High mobility nations are weaker, and heavy infantry is stronger. Diplomacy is less important b/c close proximity means you're much more likely to be able to directly impact any given conflict, and nations will collapse faster b/c the distance b/tw the front line and the rear is minimal (with multiple paths from here to there) so there's less time to recover from strategic losses (and thus players will either tend to be strong or dead). It's a style of map that works best for minimal or no diplomacy blitz-style games where strategy is simple, blunt, and often less important than tactics. I'm keenly aware that there's a fanbase for that type of game, but I've never liked it personally.

(Yes, I have far stronger opinions about this than are warranted. *sigh*)

[Criptfeind]

Well, of course a map with the wrong number of players will give unbalanced starts, without a map specifically generated to the number of players and the specific nations and with fixed starts you'll never get a really balanced start in a map. It is not perfect in Pymous for sure. I do think it is egregiously worse in maps with janky connections though, the placement decision making in the game is very bad and my experience is that you can and will get totally screwed by it on maps that have interesting/dominating geography. Being 4 provinces away from someone instead of 3 is no comfort if those are the only 4 provinces you have access too, which is the sorta thing the placement engine likes to pull in my experience.

As for the rest, for the most part I think I mostly think the strength of what you're saying is more then what I'd say, but not the direction . On highly connected maps ritual range concerns are reduced, but are still important. Geography doesn't dominate, but the specific province types still matter for expansion and fort placement, which then goes onto shape the flow of the game. River crossings and mountain passes still matter, even if ultimately they only block for 1-2 turns, because 1-2 turns can absolutely still be vital. Relative strength of flying vs slow troops is of course, relative, flying is still a huge bonus and being slow still matters, it's just less dominating of a concern, I'd say it's more like slow troops are actually usable instead of irrelevant . People do sorta tend die faster though in the early game though yes, although I'd say that there's more of a chance that you're able to actually survive a superior enemy via using diplomacy to secure allies.

That said, in those cases our opinions are really just the degree of difference from each other I think. I think we agree on the general effects, just disagree on how much and if it's good or bad? The thing I really heavily disagree with you on is diplomacy and strategy. I think in a high connectivity map diplomacy and strategy matters much more since you'll have multiple close neighbors, your ability to conduct diplomacy to make sure that you're not going to get gang banged by them is one of if not the most important skills that determine your capability to win the game. Not to mention with multiple possible enemies diplomacy and your strategy has a larger hand in dictating who you end up fighting. You have to craft a strategy that takes into account all of your neighbors in the long or short term. In a low connectivity game there's way less room for diplomacy and decision making. You fight who you fight, because the needs of geography has dictated that you fight them. You spawned relatively near a dude and everyone else is some island chain or giant impassible mountain away? There's no diplomacy or strategy there, your game has been set from turn 1, hopefully your nation doesn't suck against theirs.

All that said, like I mentioned, I'd still be okay playing in a low connectivity game. I like the higher ones more but don't have any issue with the lower ones. I'm mostly interested in seeing what you would suggest for a map. Like I said, I think I'd be fine with most maps. Out of the past 4 games I played (which, a number chosen because those are the games I've played partially within this year and thus can remember ), 3 were of lower connectivity style maps with dominating geography, and I can appreciate these games as well.

And don't worry, I also have too strong of opinions on the effects of geography on dominions games . We may have drawn opposite conclusions, but we're both together in the thinking about this too much club.

[Il Palazzo]

Yeah, too much thinking! Bad gamers, bad! More Leeroy Jenkins, please.

[MCreeper]

Wouldn't Edowyn be pretty damn huge, though? That's, combined, over 25 provinces per player. Is Valanis fine, or no wraparound is an issue? Thought that is rather big too. Probably we will end with nice old Peliwyr. 

[Criptfeind]

Edowyn and Valanis would both be pretty big for the number of players that we have. I don't mind playing a bigger game though if people like them more. Isles of Nippon'ia is 16/player so long as you don't mind it's eye searing color and cave system. End world is the right size but guh it's winter version is so fucking ugly and it's really not much more then a fancy randomly generated map. Hollow world is ugly as sin but if you want interesting and game defining geography there it is, although it might be a bit too small for 8 players. Peham is a cool map, might be a bit small for 8 players, played it with 7 and it was pretty cramped although with 2 underwater nations it might work...

Well, this is just my first thoughts, there's a LOT of maps out there. Even if most seem to be made for a slightly larger game. So, idk lol. I'm sure we can find something that everyone likes. Although partially it depends on if people are waiting on seeing the map to pick nations vs waiting for others to pick nations before looking for maps. Not sure what our goal there should be.

[Il Palazzo]

We could, say, let people propose a number of maps (as many as they like) for a day or two. And then pick one from the list at random.

[Criptfeind]

I'm not sure if we need to pick from random... Just... Suggest a map you like, if someone suggests one you don't like, say why and offer an alternative. MCreeper put up Snerdryn which most people seemed fine with, E. Albright doesn't like it, I think Albright should suggest a map that they like and then the rest of us can look it over, and if we don't have a problem with it, we can simply use it, and that way everyone is happy.

Edit: Edowyn was suggested, although my read of that was that it was begrudgingly done so as an alternative Pymous map? However if that map is actually a good map in Albrights opinion, I'll say I'm perfectly happy with it, although it's for sure very big, and if people have a problem with it being too big I'd be okay with something else too. Valanis is fine with me too. I prefer wrap around maps, but am fine without them.