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[Frumple]

Pointedly, we're not. No one's earned that kind of wealth off the back of their own efforts, and especially without hurting enough people folks get to say no, they ain't gon' fuck off. Not Musk, not Bezos, not anyone. Bloody logistics of it just hasn't been possible to date outside of pedantic horseshit involving genuine hyperinflation.

Plenty of ways of accumulating wealth get restricted due to the harm they cause, excessive amounts would just be another one in the pile

[EuchreJack]

Pointedly, we're not. No one's earned that kind of wealth off the back of their own efforts, and especially without hurting enough people folks get to say no, they ain't gon' fuck off. Not Musk, not Bezos, not anyone. Bloody logistics of it just hasn't been possible to date outside of pedantic horseshit involving genuine hyperinflation.

Plenty of ways of accumulating wealth get restricted due to the harm they cause, excessive amounts would just be another one in the pile

Perhaps it would help your argument if you backed up your accusations with some specific facts. I'd be interested to know exactly what you are talking about.  Evils of Bezos and Evils of Musk.

Also, what is your definition of "earned"? Webster's definition doesn't require manual labor: "earn"
In fact, it seems to include investment as "earning wealth".

[EuchreJack]

@Novel: What Excess were you trying to avoid?
It seems many are outraged at Excessive wealth, while I'm outraged at Excessive regulation.
Maybe you should tell us what sort of future you'd like, or it's gonna get Excessive in one way or other.

[None]

Meanwhile, Starlink is ruining astrophotography and we've got more space junk in orbit that's ready to jeopardize any random satellite or rocket and encouraged NASA Jeff Bezos to ride a rocket into space too. As an aside, if we take 2019 as a milestone, Congress only started exceeding the quantity of budgeting requested by the Executive Branch in 2014 or so, or more simply, the tail-end of Obama's presidency, and before that, it was Republicans voting to axe funding to NASA/the James Webb telescope. The telescope, by the way, which has been in the works for decades. No relation to Elon.

Here's what capitalism one multibillionaire does for astrophotography (image from the first link):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Oh yeah, and we've got Space Force now, or something. We're in space as a function of our behemoth military. That's not high capitalism, unless you count astronomical military spending to favored contractors as a good thing.

Try not to pull the ladder up behind you when you make it big, ay? No monopolies, no lawsuits to squish small businesses, no skirting safety regulations to cut costs (excessive regulation, amirite?), yeah?

[EuchreJack]

I did mention not quite liking Elon.  Sorta forgot the whole Space Monopoly game he was playing. 

Regarding the NASA/James Webb telescope project "is billions of dollars over budget and plagued by poor management".  Any truth to that?
It was the rational used in cutting its budget.

[None]

So cutting budget because it's bloated is good, but getting more budget because Elon's in space is also good. Webb was overbudget and behind schedule for years and that wouldn't have changed with anything Elon's done, but that'd make Elon prompting NASA to get more funding a bad thing because the rationale behind cutting the budget was sound. But NASA getting more budget was a good thing.

So....

[Frumple]

Perhaps it would help your argument if you backed up your accusations with some specific facts. I'd be interested to know exactly what you are talking about.  Evils of Bezos and Evils of Musk.

Bezos is friggin' amazon, man. Their work conditions and employee treatments, developed by and profited off of by him, are pretty well known at this point, to the point of a literal body count. Just as your initial surface level issue, because it doesn't stop there if you care to keep looking. Musk is a chain of boondoggles draining wealth from the gullible on top of a few things that actually was sorta' okay -- look up shit like his hyperloop proposition, just as one example. They've made huge chunks of their fortunes off of immiserating and exploiting people. They continue to make chunks of their fortunes off of making other people's lives worse.

You find the same sorts of patterns behind literally everyone that approaches that degree of wealth accumulation -- you cannot acquire that much fortune without taking it out of someone else's flesh, not in the world we live in. There's precious little chance the world wouldn't be a better place if that kind of crap was stopped before it hits that level of excess.

[MaxTheFox]

You know, I think Elon Musk is my best argument against all this.  And to think, before this discussion I really didn't like the guy.

If we did what you propose, Elon would have retired 10 years ago, as he wouldn't be able to make any more money.  Maybe sooner, I'm not his biographer.
But instead, we're back in SPACE.  Maybe that is why High Capitalism is under attack.  It's actually achieved something worth attacking!

Now that I realize I'm actually on the winning side, I'll just moonwalk out of this conversation.

Elon could be worse but everything he ever did, plans to do, and more could have been done by NASA if it wasn't underfunded. I'd rather the state than corporations explore space because I inherently distrust large corporations more than I do the state, provided that the state isn't a dystopian hellhole.

Yes but NASA only recently got said funding because Elon was making them look bad.  If not for Elon, America would be content to let NASA do nothing.
Also, where is the competition? NASA only did great things because they had a competitor.  Once that ended, public enthusiasm dried up.

If I distrusted both Corporations and States, I would push for Corporations to explore Space because States can Regulate/Control/Check Corporations whereas Corporations can't do that to States.  Realizing we can't determine how good or bad the State will be that profits the most from space exploration/exploitation.

That is the state's fault and not Elon's virtue.

Perhaps it would help your argument if you backed up your accusations with some specific facts. I'd be interested to know exactly what you are talking about.  Evils of Bezos and Evils of Musk.

Bezos is friggin' amazon, man. Their work conditions and employee treatments, developed by and profited off of by him, are pretty well known at this point, to the point of a literal body count. Just as your initial surface level issue, because it doesn't stop there if you care to keep looking. Musk is a chain of boondoggles draining wealth from the gullible on top of a few things that actually was sorta' okay -- look up shit like his hyperloop proposition, just as one example. They've made huge chunks of their fortunes off of immiserating and exploiting people. They continue to make chunks of their fortunes off of making other people's lives worse.

You find the same sorts of patterns behind literally everyone that approaches that degree of wealth accumulation -- you cannot acquire that much fortune without taking it out of someone else's flesh, not in the world we live in. There's precious little chance the world wouldn't be a better place if that kind of crap was stopped before it hits that level of excess.

This.

[Scoops Novel]

@Novel: What Excess were you trying to avoid?
It seems many are outraged at Excessive wealth, while I'm outraged at Excessive regulation.
Maybe you should tell us what sort of future you'd like, or it's gonna get Excessive in one way or other.

People like Excess. We're gonna get zat. I have little say about the future; it's your approach to the future. IMO, Humanity is going into the future heavily flawed and we need to figure out how to do that with our best qualities for that situation.

Again guys, realistic goals. Simply too many idiots in the world to get rid of capitalism.

I have nothing against small businesses, but I'm all for gutting the megacorps. Nothing is really stopping a government from doing so in most places besides being in their pocket.

And when will they ever not be? Simply not a good short-term plan, and we have shortiiish term problems.

When someone with a spine is elected. Which would require the people to be more conscious of that.

Which isn't going to happen. There just isn't time to get the idiots on board before future stuff starts happening. And after it has good luck getting thier attention.

[MaxTheFox]

@Novel: What Excess were you trying to avoid?
It seems many are outraged at Excessive wealth, while I'm outraged at Excessive regulation.
Maybe you should tell us what sort of future you'd like, or it's gonna get Excessive in one way or other.

People like Excess. We're gonna get zat. I have little say about the future; it's your approach to the future. IMO, Humanity is going into the future heavily flawed and we need to figure out how to do that with our best qualities for that situation.

Again guys, realistic goals. Simply too many idiots in the world to get rid of capitalism.

I have nothing against small businesses, but I'm all for gutting the megacorps. Nothing is really stopping a government from doing so in most places besides being in their pocket.

And when will they ever not be? Simply not a good short-term plan, and we have shortiiish term problems.

When someone with a spine is elected. Which would require the people to be more conscious of that.

Which isn't going to happen. There just isn't time to get the idiots on board before future stuff starts happening. And after it has good luck getting thier attention.

Most of the things you seem to be worrying about I have no problem with.

[Scoops Novel]

It's right there in my sig. A future with no peace, full of threats nobodies trying to work around. That's what i'm worried about.

We're not exactly on fucking track. And the ways you guys think of dealing with it, don't work.

I don't want to just be curled in a protective ball while humanity does dumb shit and hope for the best.

[None]

Counting on us for an answer and subsequently telling us 'no' at every step won't get you closer to it.

Perhaps it's best not to curl up into a protective ball, then. Reassess how you approach the uncertainty, and how much impact you have on it. You like sayings, yes? "God grant me to the strength the change the things I can change, the patience to bear the things I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Or, perhaps less biblically, "Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."

[Scoops Novel]

Wise is another word for "here's some bullshit i couldn't scrape off myself, and this is how i live with it."

No. And also, here are some screws for anyone who can't take a honestly critical and polite approach. What i've actually decided is that it all revolves around the new. Everything we're doing at the moment won't work lnng-term. Everything. The smart move is to keep trying to find new things that will.

[Frumple]

I don't want to just be curled in a protective ball while humanity does dumb shit and hope for the best.

Yeah, you've been born into the wrong species to avoid that one

All you really can do is try and hope we'll avoid fatally omnifucking ourselves.

[McTraveller]

I think to have a meaningful discussion, Novel, you have to be more specific; most of this thread has been in vast huge generalizations.

It's not feasible for an individual or even a forum group to effect global species-wide social change.

Focus on the small things! What is one thing you can do to help improve things? Look at your local opportunities. Heck even just look for something simple like what you can do to cut down on personal consumption, and do your bit and not worry about others'.  I mean I go mad with how much my kids waste - but they are kids.

My personal immediate problem to solve is how do I deal with the spontaneous 30,000 gallon pond (estimated, 150 ft x 40 ft by maybe 8" deep on average) that formed in my yard due to the mini heatwave with rain and snowmelt.  It's now frozen over again, so I can't even pump it out - meaning I don't have much margin for when the new fresh snow melts (waterline is maybe 30 feet from the house, I'd guess less than a foot elevation from the water level to where it'd enter the house), or the soon to be arriving spring rains...

How can I clear that out without making an environmental mess? Do I keep using my gasoline-powered trash pump? Do I try to get an electric one? Are there available windmill-powered pumps I could use?  Can I avail myself of my friends who said they could lend a hand?  (That's a hard one - I don't honestly know what they can do, if they don't already have appropriate equipment.)  Do I uproot my family and move to a new home that doesn't have low-lying areas that collect water on its property?