Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: A Challenging Question  (Read 1932 times)

HMD Majesty

  • Bay Watcher
  • Likes dwarfs for their stupidity.
    • View Profile
A Challenging Question
« on: October 26, 2021, 12:18:45 am »

It has often occurred to Us that there is no Weather under the Ground.  However, the only Crops affected by the Season are the strictly underground Ones.

This is most perplexing to Us, as the Seasons should affect above-ground Crops more readily then underground Crops as the above-ground Crops must, in theory, be subject to the Weather while underground Crops general are not.

As such, We ask what could have inverted the natural Order of Things so that it is the Crops which are grown away from the Changes of the Seasons that are affected by them.

delphonso

  • Bay Watcher
  • menaces with spikes of pine
    • View Profile
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2021, 02:39:50 am »

Surely the seasons are driven by magma, and as such, must primarily effect the crops underground.

HMD Majesty

  • Bay Watcher
  • Likes dwarfs for their stupidity.
    • View Profile
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2021, 09:17:01 am »

We were unaware Magma was seasonal.  How does it drive Seasons?

Mobbstar

  • Bay Watcher
  • aka Mossbird
    • View Profile
    • my website
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2021, 10:29:19 am »

In areas where seasons only arrive "on the calendar", I can see why outdoors plants are all-year growable.

As for underground crops, it may have something to do with animals seeking shelter in caves during winter.  Add to that the possibility of meltwater seeping into the sedimentary layers.  These are the only direct connections between seasons and cavern that I can think of, and both lose their effect deeper underground.

Just to clarify:  To my knowledge, seasons are primarily caused by changes in the sun angle, and by extension changes in wind patterns and rain cycle.  Are there any other causes or noteworthy effects, even if they are not immediately relevant to caverns?

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2021, 12:15:05 pm »

Perhaps many of the underground crops are not affected by the seasons, but rather choose to act in alignment with the seasons. It could be that things like pig tails and cave wheat have evolved to sprout and flower at the same times in accordance to an internal biological clock, rather than any actual influence of the seasons

HMD Majesty

  • Bay Watcher
  • Likes dwarfs for their stupidity.
    • View Profile
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2021, 04:15:07 pm »

Just to clarify:  To my knowledge, seasons are primarily caused by changes in the sun angle, and by extension changes in wind patterns and rain cycle.  Are there any other causes or noteworthy effects, even if they are not immediately relevant to caverns?

There are a Number of Plants which are triggered to bloom by Day-Length, which allows their blooming to be 'forced' by controlling the Amount of Light they get.  A Subset of these Plants - We believe Tulips are an example - need a short period of Cold first, and these must be refrigerated as Part of the Process.  Not the most noteworthy Effect, but certainly applicable to above-ground Agriculture.

Perhaps many of the underground crops are not affected by the seasons, but rather choose to act in alignment with the seasons. It could be that things like pig tails and cave wheat have evolved to sprout and flower at the same times in accordance to an internal biological clock, rather than any actual influence of the seasons

We wouldn't think so, as there is little for them to set such a Clock by.  As a general Rule, biological Clocks reset themselves against an outside Trigger on a regular basis, and since the underground Temperature and Humidity is stable any such Trigger should be trickable using Dwarfen Technology, particularly given their proven Ability to make Blueberries flower in Autumn.  (In real Life, Blueberries are a Summer Fruit.)

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2021, 02:25:58 pm »

We wouldn't think so, as there is little for them to set such a Clock by.  As a general Rule, biological Clocks reset themselves against an outside Trigger on a regular basis, and since the underground Temperature and Humidity is stable any such Trigger should be trickable using Dwarfen Technology, particularly given their proven Ability to make Blueberries flower in Autumn.  (In real Life, Blueberries are a Summer Fruit.)
One possibility is that what works in our world may not work in theirs, especially since they have their own fantastic internal set of rules to live by. The existence of cavern layers, the sub-cavern layers, the workings of gods, magic and sorcery - lots of things are remarkable in DF. That's before you come into the things which are similar to us... But not quite. Dwarves live in a flat world, where the length of time of day is the same at the poles as it is in the equator. Their seasons are dictated by forces not known to the Dwarves, and it could very well be that their stellar objects revolve around the world. But I also grant that "it's magic don't got to explain shit" doesn't satisfy that much.

That's why I think there are two possible, satisfying answers to this conundrum.

1. Blueberries in DF are similar, but not the same as our own. This goes the same for all surface crops - these worlds are edenic paradises of plenty.
or
1.1 The world is not an edenic paradise of plenty, but Dwarven farmers are just special. A good example of this would be how wild examples of fruits and plants are bound to obey the reasonable expectations of humans living in our world; things which don't like deserts, freezing cold or barren rock are not likely to be found there. But a Dwarven farmer tilling barren desert soil without a drop of rain or a river in sight can grow anything. Dwarven farmers may just be exceptional, possessed of a unique Dwarven magic which connects them, their crops and the soil they use. This could be similar to the magic Dwarves use to generate mud ex nihilo.

2. Underground species have evolved to sprout and bloom in accordance with their own internal biological clock which is closely aligned to seasonal triggers, which surprisingly can affect subterranean environments. There's infiltration from roots above, the influence of the day/night cycle on the entrances bridging surface and subterranean, and the exchange of verminous populations obeying this rythm alongside all the things reacting to the rhythm. Even in sections of cave where there is no sunlight at all, the creatures are not completely arythmic, seeking shelter in seasonal patterns by reacting to changes in humidity, food availability e.t.c.
If things like sweet pods or cave wheat are dependent on some surface vermin coming down in seasonal droves for pollination or just to act as the "trigger" that optimal conditions have been met, or if they are capable of detecting the subtle changes of humidity & temperature, this could explain it.

HMD Majesty

  • Bay Watcher
  • Likes dwarfs for their stupidity.
    • View Profile
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2021, 07:24:18 pm »

2. Underground species have evolved to sprout and bloom in accordance with their own internal biological clock which is closely aligned to seasonal triggers, which surprisingly can affect subterranean environments. There's infiltration from roots above, the influence of the day/night cycle on the entrances bridging surface and subterranean, and the exchange of verminous populations obeying this rythm alongside all the things reacting to the rhythm. Even in sections of cave where there is no sunlight at all, the creatures are not completely arythmic, seeking shelter in seasonal patterns by reacting to changes in humidity, food availability e.t.c.
If things like sweet pods or cave wheat are dependent on some surface vermin coming down in seasonal droves for pollination or just to act as the "trigger" that optimal conditions have been met, or if they are capable of detecting the subtle changes of humidity & temperature, this could explain it.

We were unaware this was the Case.  Furthermore, it occurs to Us that the Behaviour of wild underground Plants suggests that they are able to survive out of their Seasons, so perhaps it is merely that dwarfen Farmers have not, as of yet, been successful at forcing them to grow and fruit unseasonally due to the subtleness of their triggers?

(We now have a mental Image of a dwarfen Farmer running Experiments with glass Windows set on wooden Blocks, damp Quilts, and banked Fires.  "I'll get an Autumn Crop of Sweet Pods yet!")

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2021, 08:35:24 am »

'1st of Limestone, 789. Sweet pod in nether cap medium high moisture low light... Unsuccessful.
Sweet pod in nether cap medium low moisture low light... Unsuccessful.
Sweet pod in loamy soil warm temperature high moisture low light... Unsuccessful.
Conjecture: maybe add purring maggots? Cave spiders? I will taste the forbidden fruit of the autumn sweet pod... I will.'

Mobbstar

  • Bay Watcher
  • aka Mossbird
    • View Profile
    • my website
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2021, 10:49:21 am »

'1st of Limestone, 789. Sweet pod in nether cap medium high moisture low light... Unsuccessful.
Sweet pod in nether cap medium low moisture low light... Unsuccessful.
Sweet pod in loamy soil warm temperature high moisture low light... Unsuccessful.
Conjecture: maybe add purring maggots? Cave spiders? I will taste the forbidden fruit of the autumn sweet pod... I will.'

Weird, I would've thought warm soil and low light could work.[1]

HMD Majesty

  • Bay Watcher
  • Likes dwarfs for their stupidity.
    • View Profile
Re: A Challenging Question
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2021, 05:12:00 pm »

'1st of Limestone, 789. Sweet pod in nether cap medium high moisture low light... Unsuccessful.
Sweet pod in nether cap medium low moisture low light... Unsuccessful.
Sweet pod in loamy soil warm temperature high moisture low light... Unsuccessful.
Conjecture: maybe add purring maggots? Cave spiders? I will taste the forbidden fruit of the autumn sweet pod... I will.'

Weird, I would've thought warm soil and low light could work.[1]

The Idea would be that the Dwarf overheated the Seeds/Plants and they went dormant.

Again.