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[Hans Lemurson]

Build small minecart shotguns pointed in toward the center of the map, ideally with a small up-ramp so contents are launched on a parabolic arc, so dwarves can load the carts up with logs, then shoot the logs inward, where they will accumulate closer to the central fort.

...Are you serious?  Is that an actual hauling technique, or are you just suggesting something that "sounds bad-ass"?

[Thisfox]

 I can see how it would work (Although I'd use drawbridge catapults). However, flying logs of doom sounds like a GREAT way to fill coffins and the hospital.

[Mobbstar]

I can see how it would work (Although I'd use drawbridge catapults).

For personal experience, I assure you drawbridge catapults do not fire in a predictable direction.  Citation: The goblins who escaped a 30z drop and instead landed in the vulnerable markdwarves' arms.

[gchristopher]

Build small minecart shotguns pointed in toward the center of the map, ideally with a small up-ramp so contents are launched on a parabolic arc, so dwarves can load the carts up with logs, then shoot the logs inward, where they will accumulate closer to the central fort.

...Are you serious?  Is that an actual hauling technique, or are you just suggesting something that "sounds bad-ass"?

Yes, I am serious in the sense that you can in fact build a small minecart shotgun that fires logs in the air, and yes, if you launch a minecart UP off a ramp and it then strikes a wall, it will launch its contents in a parabolic arc, and yes, this would definitely transport logs across a map in bulk quickly.

I have done this, but only with living cargo that was placed in the minecart unwillingly.

The first time I saw minecarts launched upward was the dwarven space program and I used it in the dwarf temple contest to launch captured clowns from the surface of a lava lake into a giant obsidian target wall, where they'd explode and rain clown parts onto the open-air temple below. I'd start with something like this design by Larix, and modify it to shoot upward.

So, you, know, clearly a safe and practical technique, all around. 

I can see how it would work (Although I'd use drawbridge catapults). However, flying logs of doom sounds like a GREAT way to fill coffins and the hospital.

CORRECT, actually a minecart shotgun is NOT a safe and practical technique. But Mr @Lemurson was just asking for efficient, and with properly managed collection areas and burrows, you could definitely launch huge numbers of logs a long ways across the map efficiently .... where they would create a falling log death zone of scattershot raining logs.

It would also be far far more micromanagement and building tiny minecart shotgun outposts, etc. But it would definitely score points for efficiency because you can load and shoot five logs at a time and if you micromanage a dorf to just load up and fire from an adjacent log collection stockpile, you'd move a lot of logs very quickly, making this arguably the fastest available technique for moving cargo overland.

[anewaname]

For logs, you will find it difficult to make a minecart more efficient than hauling.

Consider that a minecart holds 10 logs. So it takes 21 jobs to fill and move a minecart versus 10 jobs to walk the logs back. Every time a dwarf finishes a job, if they don't accept the next job associated with the logging operation, they may be walking back to the fort while another dwarf is walking out to the logging operation. Watch dwarfs hauling logs by hand, they do not move that much slower than a walking dwarf.

So, to make it more efficient, you need to trap a bunch of dwarfs outside so they can only take the jobs associated with the logging operation, and so no dwarf in the fort can take those jobs. You would need a lock on the main gate to the surface and a circular minecart track that is behind walls and has statues on the track.
You let a large group of dwarfs outside the gate to start hauling, then lock the gate. Now the dwarfs only can access the jobs to load/push the minecart, and when the dwarfs push the minecart down the track, it rolls past the statues that the dwarfs cannot walk past, dumps at a lowest-friction trackstop, and rolls back to the logging operation stop where the dwarfs start filling it again. You want a large group of dwarfs locked outside, so they frighten wild animals and so they can finish the map area quickly (because they are locked outside without food/drink).

By locking the dwarfs outside, a minecart system has the opportunity to be more efficient than hauling.

[Hans Lemurson]

For logs, you will find it difficult to make a minecart more efficient than hauling.

Consider that a minecart holds 10 logs. So it takes 21 jobs to fill and move a minecart versus 10 jobs to walk the logs back. Every time a dwarf finishes a job, if they don't accept the next job associated with the logging operation, they may be walking back to the fort while another dwarf is walking out to the logging operation. Watch dwarfs hauling logs by hand, they do not move that much slower than a walking dwarf.

...

By locking the dwarfs outside, a minecart system has the opportunity to be more efficient than hauling.

So with my minecart system, I'm in danger of a worst-case scenario like:

Dwarf A walks out of fortress to pick up log and deliver it to minecart loading stockpile.  Job done, he heads back to get a drink.
Dwarf B stumbles out drunk from the tavern, vomits in the sunlight, makes its way over to the minecart loading station tosses a log into the minecart and trudges back to the fortress.
Dwarf C wanders out into forest to deliver a single log to a distant stockpile, then walks back to go pray in the temple...
Dwarf D walks from fortress to stockpile to toss a single log from stockpile to minecart, then moseys back to fort complaining about thirst the whole time.
And So on...

Any way to game the system so that they'll be more likely to take nearby jobs (toss log into minecart after delivery) rather than leaving that up to another dwarf?

[Salmeuk]

Any way to game the system so that they'll be more likely to take nearby jobs (toss log into minecart after delivery) rather than leaving that up to another dwarf?

I believe that was specified; in order to force dwarves to perform certain jobs, they must have no other job options. So locking them out in the rain and the ferns is a good option.

I can second the notion of a 'dumping pit'. When paired with the above forced hauling, you can easily consolidate hundreds of logs into quantum stockpiles. This also allows you to have extremely lengthy or roundabout fortress entrances, without ALSO creating an issue with your dwarves taking ages to bring anything from the surface.

I have also found a very easy thing to do to improve your early game efficiency is to only cut as much wood as you need at the moment, and avoid hauling it if at all possible. As anewname explained, whenever a dwarf decides to cancel their job, they must retreat from the surface all the way to your fortress, while another hapless dwarf is recruited to tromp their way up to the woodpiles. Instead, my carpenters usually live on the surface, working in a little hut, chopping lime trees into chairs, and this works quite well. No stockpiles needed, and I only need to replace the carpenter (due to inevitable death-by-intruder, or the rare but dramatic death-by-falling-log) every year or so. lol

When you do need to haul wood, it is a lot easier to simply unseal a bridge, 'd'ump the logs you need at the moment, then reseal the shaft against intruders.

Minecarts... can work, but anything that increases micromanagement is not ideal.. especially for something as simple as moving a basic resource.

[DwarfStar]

Instead, my carpenters usually live on the surface, working in a little hut, chopping lime trees into chairs, and this works quite well. No stockpiles needed, and I only need to replace the carpenter (due to inevitable death-by-intruder, or the rare but dramatic death-by-falling-log) every year or so. lol

But don't you then have the exact same problem hauling the chairs inside? Or do you mean you leave little piles of chair strewn across the landscape?

I have to say, the minecart shotgun idea seems a bit over-engineered, if delightful in its absurdity. The sane/normal way minecarts could improve efficiency is because they allow a dwarf to haul a lot more logs at once. You set up a stockpile at one end that feeds into the minecart, run a track to your fort, and have the minecart dump into a QSP at the other end. You can gain considerable efficiency this way, but it's a judgement call whether it's actually a net gain when you consider the construction costs. Doubly so if you power the track with rollers...even more increased construction costs, slightly increased efficiency, greatly increased chance of a dwarf or a pet getting creamed.

The other factor to consider is how many routes to build, and how many "stations" to put on each one (route stops with stockpiles feeding them), which would depend on the layout of the map and the size of the forested area. But the more stations, the more overhead you introduce in terms of cart pushing jobs.

I don't think anyone is going to be able to tell you what the best choice is in your situation, because even if you showed us your map, there are other even more important factors like how much patience you have, what you want your map to look like when you're done, and so on. Let us know what you decide to try and how it works out!

[anewaname]

Any way to game the system so that they'll be more likely to take nearby jobs (toss log into minecart after delivery) rather than leaving that up to another dwarf?

In some cases, they may attempt to take nearby jobs as a priority, but there are other priorities that are higher on the list than distance, so distance is not likely to be the reason the dwarf's job was assigned. Most hauling jobs are 'last-in, first-out", so you cut a bunch of trees and the last tree cut is the first bunch of logs hauled, even when they are the farthest away. Locking dwarfs in the area is the only way I know to force them to focus on the logging operation, without making temporary labor changes, which I try to avoid. As a corollary to the forcing dwarfs to work a minecart by locking them in an area, I also lock miners in areas where I want them to keep digging until the work is done, like when mining candy near magma there are job interruptions from warm stone announcements that would cause miners to walk 500 tiles back to the fort, so I lock them in.

[Starver]

For warm-/wet-stone digging, I tend to 'lock' (burrow, actually) a miner into an area with two (potentially/intermittently) warm-/wet-interuptable digging routes. If/when they cancel on the one, they auto-bounce to try the other nearby digging job while I reinstate the one just cancelled as it came out of 'unknown' obscurity, then (if/when the second path reveals a contentious cancellation) the miner takes the short walk back to the other reinstated 'coalface', and so on.

This could just be a double-width path that reveals hotness/wetness accordingly but 'unzips' the known-to-be-hot/wet tiles at least every other tile dig-through, or two parallel tracks (with frequent cross-tunnels) or two ways round an intended room edge (if it's not a huge room...)

Takes more intervention than (with a true lock-in, and no other path) running a single path and only when finished in this way define all the now certain (but hot/wet) tiles to be dug, as an extension sideways from those painstakingly dug through cancel-spam. (There's also changing things so you don't get cancel-zoom all the time, but that could be dangerous if left on and finding what should be another alert-spawning area elsewhere.)

Obviously, not much to take away into clearing forests, without the same inevitable cancel-zoom behaviour, unless "always have at least two jobs waiting in the vicinity", combined with your chosen level of restraining movement and job-choice to within just that area.

(I also have the (bad?) habit of always making sure no dwarf has an easy excuse to be idle. Sustenance needs aside, which can still be held off if I try, if there aren't at least a couple of jobs out there for an Idling dwarf to pick up, I've done something wrong (up to and including left them trapped in another job-priority area, now finished).)

[feelotraveller]

If you're up for a bit of micromanagement a percentage point or two in efficiency can be gained pre-hauling in the logging process.  Take a single woodcutter and send them to the furthest tree from the entrance that you wish to cut, by marking only that tree to be cut.  Then after the dwarf has accepted that job mark the another tree to be cut so that the dwarf's shortest path has them standing on the other side of that tree from the hauling entrance.  Repeat. Watch tree after tree conveniently fall back towards the entrance saving a few steps for each log hauled.

[DwarfStar]

For logs, you will find it difficult to make a minecart more efficient than hauling.

Consider that a minecart holds 10 logs. So it takes 21 jobs to fill and move a minecart versus 10 jobs to walk the logs back. Every time a dwarf finishes a job, if they don't accept the next job associated with the logging operation, they may be walking back to the fort while another dwarf is walking out to the logging operation. Watch dwarfs hauling logs by hand, they do not move that much slower than a walking dwarf.

...

By locking the dwarfs outside, a minecart system has the opportunity to be more efficient than hauling.

I agree with all of this, that it is easy to accidentally set up a minecart system that is less efficient than simple hauling. But, the math you cite is not particularly compelling, because those 21 jobs could be a lot shorter than the 10 hauling jobs. As you say, though, you practically have to use burrows to keep dwarfs from wasting a lot of time walking back and forth between your main fort and the end of the cart track.

One possible way to avoid constant micromanagement would be to set up permanent burrows, to keep a separate set of dwarves in the main fort vs. the tree loading area. You can add parts of your main fort to the "remote" burrow so that those dwarves are still able sleep and eat in their usual places, but unable to take any other jobs around the main fort area.

[Moeteru]

For personal experience, I assure you drawbridge catapults do not fire in a predictable direction.  Citation: The goblins who escaped a 30z drop and instead landed in the vulnerable markdwarves' arms.

It is actually possible to use retracting bridges as a reliable and controlled way to move objects around the map. Items will be flung in random directions every time the bridge changes state, but if you make a long, thin bridge completely enclosed by walls and a roof then the items can only move forward and back along the improvised conveyor belt. You can make them move preferentially forward rather than backwards by changes in z level. Items follow a random walk along the conveyor until they reach a hole where they fall down to the next conveyor. Items are more likely to fall down holes than to get thrown up through them so on average the flow of items is downward.
This technique does have quite a few disadvantages though:

• It's very slow. On average each activation will only move an item by one or two tiles, and not necessarily in the direction you want.
• It produces significant lag. Every time the bridges change state the game has to recalculate parts of its pathfinding cache.
• Individual items may take a very long time to pass through the system. If you want a high rate of throughput, you need to fill the conveyors up with a lot of items.
• Any dwarves who wander into the system while it's active will probably get pulverised.

On the other hand it does have two main advantages over minecarts:

• It can operate without any input from dwarves as long as there's a steady stream of items falling in a specific area.
• It can move items such as webs which can't be put inside minecarts.

It's probably completely useless for this specific situation, but in the right circumstances it can work.

[Salmeuk]

Any way to game the system so that they'll be more likely to take nearby jobs (toss log into minecart after delivery) rather than leaving that up to another dwarf?

In some cases, they may attempt to take nearby jobs as a priority, but there are other priorities that are higher on the list than distance, so distance is not likely to be the reason the dwarf's job was assigned. Most hauling jobs are 'last-in, first-out", so you cut a bunch of trees and the last tree cut is the first bunch of logs hauled, even when they are the farthest away. Locking dwarfs in the area is the only way I know to force them to focus on the logging operation, without making temporary labor changes, which I try to avoid. As a corollary to the forcing dwarfs to work a minecart by locking them in an area, I also lock miners in areas where I want them to keep digging until the work is done, like when mining candy near magma there are job interruptions from warm stone announcements that would cause miners to walk 500 tiles back to the fort, so I lock them in.

Yeah. Instead of baiting them into the 'correct' jobs, simply deny them every other option. We are working with dwarves, after all.

If you're up for a bit of micromanagement a percentage point or two in efficiency can be gained pre-hauling in the logging process.  Take a single woodcutter and send them to the furthest tree from the entrance that you wish to cut, by marking only that tree to be cut.  Then after the dwarf has accepted that job mark the another tree to be cut so that the dwarf's shortest path has them standing on the other side of that tree from the hauling entrance.  Repeat. Watch tree after tree conveniently fall back towards the entrance saving a few steps for each log hauled.

This. .  I hadn't thought of controlling the tree fall direction! This is particularly useful when embarking near tall canyons, as you can avoid half the logs falling into the water.

Curious, I will have to see just how annoying this is to perform.

[Hans Lemurson]

Are all jobs in DF executed LIFO (in a stack) or are some done FIFO (in a queue)?