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[Behr11]

I feel like my dwarves aren't getting pissed off enough. A dwarf dies when they take over a workshop every once in a while, but the effects of which are extremely minimal. I lose a dwarf once a year to this, which doesn't feel right.

I feel that the stress system has led to something that's very surface-level predictable, and that's led to less interesting narratives for my forts. I've had 5 forts that each lasted for 7 or so IGY, so I've had a lot of time for these things to occur (They all fell because I'm a greedy imperialist). A better solution to this would be to strike a better balance between the frequent tantrum spirals of previous versions and what we have now.

[Mobbstar]

Are you saying you have a workshop that regularly kills dwarves? Sounds like a little 'shop of horrors.

Jokes aside, I assume you mean failed artifact moods. This by itself has nothing to do with stress, but I assume you want it to have a stronger effect on family members and close friends. Perhaps this could be facilitated via the existing memory system (changes personality to e.g. give people anger propensity), assuming it doesn't already. And to keep things interesting, that memory might even evoke good emotions in people who value sacrifice for example.

[Lidku]

Wasn't it a problem before that everyone hated the fact that a little thing, like rain, could degrade a dwarf to an eldritch-tier level of depression out the bat when coupled with other already ongoing stress effects? When stress was first incorporated as a mechanic, I remember how mind-strikingly crippling it was.  I don't think making the Stress more "exaggerated" would be a good idea.

[callisto8413]

-1   WE just spent years complaining about this.  No.

[SixOfSpades]

I think OP is talking about dwarves feeling greater levels of stress from causes that should be more stressful. For example, Urist may be permanently traumatized by what you or I would consider very mild stressors--he saw an ogre skeleton 8 years ago, and he keeps remembering the time that his stinky old sock rotted right off his foot--to the point that his damaged psyche is beyond saving, and the safest & easiest solution for me is to lock him in his bedroom until he dies of thirst. Urist's family members, meanwhile, can hang out with their friends just steps away from the door behind which Urist's cries for help are growing steadily weaker, and feel only a modest pang of grief over their cousin's untimely passing . . . oh hey, it's time for a drink!

[Atarlost]

DF stress is already exaggerated.  Around half of Europe's population died in the medieval black plague epidemic and those who survived almost all got on with their lives. 

I think OP is talking about dwarves feeling greater levels of stress from causes that should be more stressful. For example, Urist may be permanently traumatized by what you or I would consider very mild stressors--he saw an ogre skeleton 8 years ago, and he keeps remembering the time that his stinky old sock rotted right off his foot--to the point that his damaged psyche is beyond saving, and the safest & easiest solution for me is to lock him in his bedroom until he dies of thirst. Urist's family members, meanwhile, can hang out with their friends just steps away from the door behind which Urist's cries for help are growing steadily weaker, and feel only a modest pang of grief over their cousin's untimely passing . . . oh hey, it's time for a drink!

If the justice system was actually usable mad cousin Urist would dying in a prison cell not an oubliette and no one should suffer more than a modest pang of grief. 

Everyone dies.  Every dwarf should have lost grandparents or great grandparents to old age if no other cause by the time he or she becomes a father or mother depending on the average age at which dwarves have children.  Most adult dwarfs should have the 'getting used to tragedy' flag and it should actually mean they're getting used to tragedy and can't be driven into further personality change by it unless they suffer a significantly closer loss like a spouse (and a widow or widower shouldn't be at risk of personality change from losing a second spouse). 

[Mobbstar]

DF stress is already exaggerated.  Around half of Europe's population died in the medieval black plague epidemic and those who survived almost all got on with their lives.

"Almost" being the part where people got accused of poisoning wells, culminating in Persecution of a Minority during the Black Death with city-wide riots, arson, and thousands of gruesome domestic murders and suicides even before said cities got infected.

DF already has religious persecution and the resulting prejudice and grudges in worldgen, but I don't think it affects Fortress Mode.  Besides that, the main differences I can see between the real events and a typical DF tantrum, is that angry dwarves lash out individually and against whoever is near, instead of joining efforts to chase down people or professions they actually have a common grudge against.  Perhaps that is in part due to how difficult it is for dwarves to actually have a grudge against each other.

(Editted to correct vocabulary mistakes. Jesus does not get formally executed in DF.)

[SixOfSpades]

DF already has religious prosecution and resulting stigmata in worldgen,

Prosecution = Formal legal action brought against a person or organization.
Persecution = Informal social negative treatment applied against a person, class, race, religion, gender, etc.
Stigmata = Puncture wounds and/or blood in locations corresponding to the wounds that Jesus received in crucifixion (hands, feet, ribs).
Stigma = Outward sign (usually only figurative) of some evil, petty, or shameful activity or association.

[DwarfStar]

My big problem with the stress system is that seems like it is roughly based on the concept of "ego depletion" which was popular in with psychology researchers for a couple of decades, but then was thoroughly debunked, leaving a whole generation of researchers with egg on their faces.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/cover_story/2016/03/ego_depletion_an_influential_theory_in_psychology_may_have_just_been_debunked.html

I also think the idea of ego depletion is harmful to real peoples' well-being. It encourages people to keep a mental score card of "good" and "bad" things that happened to them, and can cause them to be lazy when too many "bad" things are on their mental list. Kind of like DF dwarves behave, if I'm honest. Not always, but sometimes real people are capable of weathering virtually unlimited suffering without necessarily becoming completely useless. And, those are some of the most compelling stories.

I get that in DF, the stress system is supposed to provide the reward for playing the game well: providing high quality food and shelter for your dwarves. I just wish there were some other consequences to it, both positive and negative, than there are now. Maybe stressed out dwarves might leave your fortress voluntarily, seeking fame and fortune (and perhaps unrotten clothing) elsewhere. But then maybe they would have a chance of returning to your fort later if you improve conditions.

[PlumpHelmetMan]

I mean in all fairness, the DF stress system will probably always be simplified just because it's virtually impossible for a video game AI to fully simulate real psychology (at least for now), but stuff like stressed dwarves leaving the fortress for a while certainly sounds doable to me.

[Bumber]

DF already has religious prosecution and resulting stigmata in worldgen,

Prosecution = Formal legal action brought against a person or organization.
Persecution = Informal social negative treatment applied against a person, class, race, religion, gender, etc.
Stigmata = Puncture wounds and/or blood in locations corresponding to the wounds that Jesus received in crucifixion (hands, feet, ribs).
Stigma = Outward sign (usually only figurative) of some evil, petty, or shameful activity or association.

So we should be able to call the Church Police in DF?

[Salmeuk]

My big problem with the stress system is that seems like it is roughly based on the concept of "ego depletion" which was popular in with psychology researchers for a couple of decades, but then was thoroughly debunked, leaving a whole generation of researchers with egg on their faces.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/cover_story/2016/03/ego_depletion_an_influential_theory_in_psychology_may_have_just_been_debunked.html

I also think the idea of ego depletion is harmful to real peoples' well-being. It encourages people to keep a mental score card of "good" and "bad" things that happened to them, and can cause them to be lazy when too many "bad" things are on their mental list. Kind of like DF dwarves behave, if I'm honest. Not always, but sometimes real people are capable of weathering virtually unlimited suffering without necessarily becoming completely useless. And, those are some of the most compelling stories.

I get that in DF, the stress system is supposed to provide the reward for playing the game well: providing high quality food and shelter for your dwarves. I just wish there were some other consequences to it, both positive and negative, than there are now. Maybe stressed out dwarves might leave your fortress voluntarily, seeking fame and fortune (and perhaps unrotten clothing) elsewhere. But then maybe they would have a chance of returning to your fort later if you improve conditions.

Interesting points! I think a more realistic psychology would bring a lot to the game, but also be extremely difficult to simplify into something stable. You also run the risk of further obscuring central features of the game, should you further complicated the inner workings of dwarves, though with this upcoming U.I. rewrite I imagine a lot of what is presently obscured could be more easily displayed in unit menus.

Honestly, Toady has mentioned creating some kind of difficulty slider for various options in the future. Parameter adjustment is the ultimate answer to this tired back and forth. For those impatient, I suggest you look into modding your own adjustments to stress propensity into the game, as that can re-sensitize dwarves to the horrors of war, and complicate management greatly.

[SixOfSpades]

So we should be able to call the Church Police in DF?

NO ONE EXPECTS THE SLAANESH INQUISITION

[PlumpHelmetMan]

For those impatient, I suggest you look into modding your own adjustments to stress propensity into the game, as that can re-sensitize dwarves to the horrors of war, and complicate management greatly.

Wait, you can do that? Goddamn, why did no one tell me before now?

[Salmeuk]

Dunno, it's one of the easier mods to perform as well.

raw files --> objects --> creature_standard.txt

edit [PERSONALITY:STRESS_VULNERABILITY:0:45:100] under the [DWARF] section as you want.

with the three numbers being "lowest, average, and highest" values you want for dwarves. I'm pretty sure 80+ leads to a fairly constant unhappiness.. so for a more challenging but not STUPID challenging you might shift the average to 60 or so, and the lowest value from 0 to say 30 or 40.

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Stress#Altering_the_raws