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[nerdpride]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>The Wikipedia (all hail) remarks that ice sculpture is made difficult due to the volaitility of the material. Ice can be damnably brittle, but then, so can stone. Anyone who can carve a chair out of shale can probably, with a bit of training, make one out of ice.</STRONG>

I always thought that stone chairs looked nothing like real chairs.  They are called
"thrones" after all, it would be more like a box with a backing to it than a flatish board with legs coming out the bottom and maybe a few things in the back to rest on.

[DrJonez]

So can water and other fluids freeze/melt in the new version?

[tekknej]

sooo... if gas will be included in future versions, we could make a...
FLAMETHROWER... i think dwarves have some understanding od pressure... =)
while exploring ice region in adventure mode we could collapse rooms on our enemies by quick melting ^_^

[Sean Mirrsen]

Toady....  just in what way beer is a "plant entry"? I'd think it more logical to have it as a drinkable liquid.. Yeah, sure, it's brewed and so on, but it's still just like water in anything but taste. It's all about the states, solid melting makes liquid, liquid freezing makes solid, no matter the material.

And,  burning walls? You mean wooden walls on fire? Heh, well I'd suppose they'd burn like any tree would.

[Lavastine]

quote:   Toady.... just in what way beer is a "plant entry"? I'd think it more logical to have it as a drinkable liquid.. Yeah, sure, it's brewed and so on, but it's still just like water in anything but taste. It's all about the states, solid melting makes liquid, liquid freezing makes solid, no matter the material.

Maybe dwarves make really thick beer? Mmm, chewy!

[Thallone]

quote:Originally posted by Sean Mirrsen:
<STRONG>Toady....  just in what way beer is a "plant entry"? I'd think it more logical to have it as a drinkable liquid.. Yeah, sure, it's brewed and so on, but it's still just like water in anything but taste. It's all about the states, solid melting makes liquid, liquid freezing makes solid, no matter the material.

And,  burning walls? You mean wooden walls on fire? Heh, well I'd suppose they'd burn like any tree would.</STRONG>

I'm not toady, but: Beer is plant because beer is food. And also because you've merely processed plant into plant. That's the way the game handles it. Could it be changed? probably, but likely not without afecting savegames, as most saves will have beer.

As for melting things, as I understand it in the game, liquids are flows, solids are objects, and the distinction is critical.

Question for Toady: Suppose I start on a Freezing map with little or no glacier. Can I add to the total glacier mass by intermittently running a screw pump to the outside from a cave river?

[Thallone]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>Right now there aren't any ice blocks, since I'd have to change all the mason jobs (they currently accept stone objects, and water isn't stone).  Or I could add an entire ice sculpting profession or something.  In any case, it isn't done at this point, not even for obtaining drinking water.  You could probably mine with flaming objects in adventure mode, at least if heat from object fires goes in the z direction.  I don't remember if it does.</STRONG>

Not an Ice sculpter, but as a fanatical how it's made type show watcher, the things on ice sculpting that I've seen indicate that it's more like wood carving than masonry. Sculpting ice would be in the craftsdwarf's repitoire, if anywhere.

(q) (a) make Ice bolts   R

Look ma! a new practice ammo type!

[termitehead]

So let me get this straight.  Nile farming is gone?  

[Name Lips]

quote:Originally posted by termitehead:
<STRONG>So let me get this straight.  Nile farming is gone?    </STRONG>

Did you read something I didn't? I'm not being snarky, you easily could have read something I didn't.

But assuming you're on a map with an underground river, and you manage to tunnel to and find it in the 3D Unknown that is your map, then maybe it'll flood every now and then. I don't know.

I wonder if some maps will have rivers that flow into or out of caves in the mountain? These things aren't that unusual in real life (at least with streams anyway). That would answer the whole "I wonder if there's a river in this mountain?" question before you even start.

EDIT:
OK,  I found where you read it - the development notes. Looks like overflows are out. It seems to be a side-effect of trying to figure out flow issues and water volume in a 3d environment.

Maybe it'll be in sometime in the future.

But for right now, I'm actually a little glad I'm not going to suddenly have a river burst and flood my lower levels because I accidentally stuck a ramp too close to it.  :p

[ September 20, 2007: Message edited by: Name Lips ]

[axus]

I think river overflows are a great game challenge.  Of course it's not a showstopper, but I hope they are added after the new release, after the major bugs are fixed.

[Furious Fish]

quote:Originally posted by Name Lips:
<STRONG>

Did you read something I didn't? I'm not being snarky, you easily could have read something I didn't.</STRONG>

Toady's post today on dev_now:

quote:I'm skipping overflows for rivers at this time. It was nice to have subterranean farming happen more or less automatically once you found a river, but getting it to work correctly now would take more time than I want to spend. You can mimic an overflow with a screw pump, more or less, with fewer drowning accidents, and it's easier to set up than a floodgate system, but farming is more of an obstacle for new people with things set up this way. Cave-ins to be considered next.

[termitehead]

Kinda sucks since I love passive farming/tree farming.  The whole setting up special areas to do it kinda sucks...  on the other hand, terraced rice-farming is in!

[xarph]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>Now we're actually talking about what the mason would use, and if it comes down it, I don't know enough about frozen beer sculpture to know if the stoneworking skills should be what's used for a frozen beer chair, or if some kind of ice working skills are more appropriate.</STRONG>

My brother the real life brewmaster says the following:
 

quote:(10:26:45 AM) it freezes like soda
(10:26:50 AM) i recommend flat beer
(10:27:00 AM) get the gas out of it
(10:27:50 AM) then chisel it like any other block of ice
(10:31:18 AM) AIM: is there any way to decarbonate beer other than leaving it out for weeks?
(10:32:09 AM) AIM: assume that it was carbonated with yeast in a barrel
(11:39:38 AM) you dont have to leave it out for weeks
(11:39:46 AM) you can heat it in the oven
(11:39:51 AM) but that de-alcohols the beer

Generally, frozen beer is more brittle than water ice due to the carbonation. If one was really serious about carving frozen beer or a reasonable facsimile thereof, you could heat it in an oven to decarbonate it. It would kill the alcohol as well but retain most of the flavor and color.

Edit: ask any questions in detail and I will pass them along.

[ September 20, 2007: Message edited by: xarph ]

[I3erent]

quote:Originally posted by axus:
<STRONG>I'd think that anything solid that was dense enough and had enough volume should be sculptable in DF.  How big are the leftover pieces of ice from mining?</STRONG>

What about limb sculptures?

[Toady One]

Re: beer as a plant entry -- you had mentioned changing limestone into ice in the rock raws, and I was going from there and talking about the raws.  Any property of beer as a frozen liquid would have to be in the plant raw, because that is where beer is defined, unless a new raw is added when we get more into the chemistry side of things, and the plant just tells it to make alcohol with certain flavor properties and it inherits its frozen behavior from a general alcohol material (it does this to some extent now, but the plant alcohol temperature parameters are hardcoded).  It isn't treating alcohol as if it were made out of actual solid chunks of the plant.

Dwarves currently have problems keeping their feet warm because there aren't enough layers for them.  They'll either need to wear something more, or I can increase the coverage numbers on foot items.  I don't think I've added an extra AI for them to wear extra clothing, so it's just like frozen mountains now in that they'd want to remain inside.  I'm going to see what I need to do when I test a fortress out.

Right now if you run water outside from a cave river on a freezing map it will freeze (instantly...).  The fact that it freezes instantly might make it difficult to really build something up out there.  It would be possible to have water carry over the temperature of its previous square when it moves, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Yeah, nile farming is out temporarily.  When I got rid of water clumping at waterfalls, that also made it more difficult to temporarily stack water above a river with a lower outlet.  It'll probably have to be a special event like the ocean waves.  It'll be back at some point.