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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 158026 times)

Talion

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2445 on: September 17, 2007, 12:42:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Krash:
<STRONG>A minor issue with the bloodflow; shouldn't it stain the shores of the river?  It does in the current version of DF.  I always love how gory my river shore is after a great siege ending in a valliant charge to repell the green scum.</STRONG>

It does stain the shore at one point on the bend with the pond connected to it. Although I assume you mean over a much larger area.

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Kylaer

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2446 on: September 17, 2007, 01:32:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by kitsu:
<STRONG>(Current flood status)</STRONG>

Yes, I know how the current system works. I'm asking about the new system, a question no-one except Toady can, at the moment, answer.

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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2447 on: September 17, 2007, 04:58:00 pm »

The issue with one drop of blood staining the whole river is basically the same problem as a pool of blood being tracked everywhere on the ground.  It would be ideal to track amounts, though a bit more expensive, which is why I haven't addressed the problem at all yet.  I was thinking of tracking something like 2000 spots and then just having them disappear from the oldest first after that, or leaving them without volume info, or something.  None of that is really satisfactory, but I don't have the map bits to do more.  Alternatively, it could just increase the removal chance for flows as they go along, but I'd rather let the complete problem stew a bit longer.

Stoneworker and many other titles are new.  The job titles now match the labor list, with some extra titles (like stoneworker) for dwarves that have a mix of skills.  The labor list has also been expanded (and without categories, so a bit more scroll pain for now).

Blood is not its own flowing liquid at this point.  It does exist as an item, a map marker in varying degrees and as a contaminant on units and items now, but you can't create independent flows of anything other than water and magma.  That will come later, though there will always be limited slots, and fluids will have to be immiscible barring some inspiration, due to storage constraints.  It might be possible to do flows of specific fluids (like a swamp whiskey silo) using an indexing scheme, but the slot number will have to be reasonably small.

Flow pushing is one of the remaining issues with flow directions in the task list (as part of the countdown).  The others are handling frozen liquids versus map tiles and considering outdoor farming (not really a flow issue but it came out of considering overflows).  Units will probably be affected, but it remains to be seen exactly what I'll manage.  I have the flow directions established, include a timed initial push direction which I'll be using for the units.  It should all get in.  However, although I've gotten in rough continuous current directions (which should work for player made river branches and so on), I'd need to do more with floating objects to get long-term pushes in, so that probably won't happen for a bit.

The blood flow is staining the walls of the river down below.  It currently doesn't think about the shores which are now one unit above in the z direction, as the legacy code didn't account for it.  It's in the observation list, but I'm not sure what I'll get to.

Just a break-down of what's left, aside from flows (including overflows):

Cave-ins, which we've discussed elsewhere, but I'm not going to spend too much time on it for now.  Couple or three days.

Updating the zlib stuff -- this has already been done so far as I know.  I just have to coordinate with somebody.  It shouldn't be an issue.

Testing -- this is all the stuff that arose as I did the other stuff, basically.  The only large item that appeared here is the need for water detection, and I've discussed this a bit in
the geologist suggestion thread
.  There are also 32 specific tests I've written down, which shouldn't take all that long.  There's also 17 pages of observations I've made as I've played which I have to go through, though a lot of those will just result in a new req/bloat, and there are 5 pages I've already relegated to req/bloat status.  There may be a day or two I spend just updating the dev pages.  I'll also need to update/excise the inaccurate portions of the manual even if I don't write a proper one.

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MickEfinn

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2448 on: September 17, 2007, 05:24:00 pm »

Only Water n Magma?!?

Mah Beer fountain... Noooooooo!

Kidding aside, couldn't blood be handled by gradual diffusion? As in it's a horrid mess when a dead unicorn topples off the bridge, squirting blood everywhere. But by the time it's a mile downstream it shouldn't be too visible. It's not an oil slick now.

hmm... A Bubblin' Crude... Oil that is.

Mah humble suggestion is the following:
Add a blood Capacity number to the creature. Like Gallons. So HEAD, ARM, ARM, etc, SPINE, BRAIN, BLOOD = X.

A dwarf could have 5 gallons of blood (plus a half gallon of Whiskey for flavor) in his system. Should an elephant hurl said dead n dismembered dwarf into the river it should have 5 gallons maximum blood added. This would last a limited lifetime in flowing water (Say a timer and a release rate), and in stagnant pools it would either contaminate a pool for a period of time then slowly vanish. Or rot, or whatever seems easiest to impliment.

Heck if you wanted to limit how much blood could be tracked all over the place by dwarves you could state that one gallon = 2 squares worth of potential mess to track everywhere. And the idea of a dead dwarf in a slowly expanding pool of blood is strangely good to me.


Stoneworker eh? Toady, can I select that and it will switch on certain skill sets? Can we make our own custom ones? Fishmonger for fish cleaning and labour, or Chef for butcher/cook. This would be quite an improvement to the skills available!

Thank you for your time and effort Toady, I will endavour to enjoy this game immensely.

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mickel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2449 on: September 17, 2007, 05:50:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by MickEfinn:
<STRONG>Thank you for your time and effort Toady</STRONG>

Seconded, and to you too, Threetoe. And also to the people who are making the forum and wiki good. Getting sentimental here...

quote:
<STRONG>I will endavour to enjoy this game immensely.</STRONG>

I am already.  :)

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Nukeitall

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2450 on: September 17, 2007, 06:03:00 pm »

Keep up the good work, mang.
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Ruggan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2451 on: September 17, 2007, 06:33:00 pm »

Toady:

I've heard speculation regarding the blood-river video, and now I'm curious myself: Has wind been implemented and if yes, are there any visual effects on the water's surface?  Seems like there were some occasional lines moving across the water.

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Zaratustra

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2452 on: September 17, 2007, 08:13:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>That will come later, though there will always be limited slots, and fluids will have to be immiscible barring some inspiration, due to storage constraints.</STRONG>

Use the bits that were used to store the wall type, since walls and fluids can't coexist.

Silveron

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2453 on: September 17, 2007, 09:35:00 pm »

Ruggan, it looked more like the flow direction being represented via the ripples.
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Felix the Cat

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2454 on: September 17, 2007, 10:55:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by MickEfinn:
<STRONG>Only Water n Magma?!?

Mah Beer fountain... Noooooooo!

Kidding aside, couldn't blood be handled by gradual diffusion? As in it's a horrid mess when a dead unicorn topples off the bridge, squirting blood everywhere. But by the time it's a mile downstream it shouldn't be too visible. It's not an oil slick now.

hmm... A Bubblin' Crude... Oil that is.

Mah humble suggestion is the following:
Add a blood Capacity number to the creature. Like Gallons. So HEAD, ARM, ARM, etc, SPINE, BRAIN, BLOOD = X.

A dwarf could have 5 gallons of blood (plus a half gallon of Whiskey for flavor) in his system. Should an elephant hurl said dead n dismembered dwarf into the river it should have 5 gallons maximum blood added. This would last a limited lifetime in flowing water (Say a timer and a release rate), and in stagnant pools it would either contaminate a pool for a period of time then slowly vanish. Or rot, or whatever seems easiest to impliment.

Heck if you wanted to limit how much blood could be tracked all over the place by dwarves you could state that one gallon = 2 squares worth of potential mess to track everywhere. And the idea of a dead dwarf in a slowly expanding pool of blood is strangely good to me.


Stoneworker eh? Toady, can I select that and it will switch on certain skill sets? Can we make our own custom ones? Fishmonger for fish cleaning and labour, or Chef for butcher/cook. This would be quite an improvement to the skills available!

Thank you for your time and effort Toady, I will endavour to enjoy this game immensely.</STRONG>


Toady mentioned that blood is an item at the moment, which makes diffusion impossible in the same sense that diffusion of a bronze mini-forge is impossible... sounds like the system is based on one bit per item (?) which does not allow for varying degrees of that item to be in a tile unless multiple bits are allocated.

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Tormy

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2455 on: September 18, 2007, 05:00:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Ruggan:
<STRONG>Toady:

I've heard speculation regarding the blood-river video, and now I'm curious myself: Has wind been implemented and if yes, are there any visual effects on the water's surface?  Seems like there were some occasional lines moving across the water.</STRONG>


Jesus christ....adding wind effects while the game has ASCII "gfx". You gotta be kidding.   :D   :D   :D
Perhaps first we need full graphical support in the game, after that we can have visible effects like those. Seriously get real man, this game is still ASCII.

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Ruggan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2456 on: September 18, 2007, 05:19:00 am »

I've got to be kidding?  Nah, Toady would never surprise me by being in-depth, even insanely so.  That's just his nature, and that's one of the reasons the current state and future of the game are so bright.
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Ruggan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2457 on: September 18, 2007, 05:22:00 am »

Also, regarding the wind speculation:

The "ripples" seem to be going west to east (while the river is running east to west), and these lines also appear in lone standing ponds.  If anything, I wouldn't think the ponds would be churning so much so as to be as actively moving as the river.

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LSTAR

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2458 on: September 18, 2007, 05:27:00 am »

Oooooh
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Silveron

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2459 on: September 18, 2007, 05:57:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Ruggan:
<STRONG>Also, regarding the wind speculation:

The "ripples" seem to be going west to east (while the river is running east to west), and these lines also appear in lone standing ponds.  If anything, I wouldn't think the ponds would be churning so much so as to be as actively moving as the river.</STRONG>


Nah, the blue ripples are east to west. The white foam is 'maybe' west to east but looks rather random.

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