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[Zaratustra]

Everywhere provided you deal with the demons guarding it, of course. I suppose the former dwarfort locations were special adamantine-rumored sites?

A suggestion: At some point of the adamantine slippery slope, miners should start digging adamantine without you asking them to, or possibly fighting each other for objects made of the stuff.

But there should be a way for competent players to skirt the edge farther than bad players, so you get a "ok I can handle this much how about a bit more no wait oh crap" feeling.

[ September 12, 2007: Message edited by: Zaratustra ]

[puke]

quote:Originally posted by SwiftSpear:
<STRONG>There should be pro's and cons for choosing to take actions such as genocide.  The pro's are pretty obvious ... what we really need is a sensible system of cons</STRONG>

well if that doesnt sum up human history, im not sure what does.

[thvaz]

In the next version you can build a fortress anywhere. Maybe there is a crust of adamantine in the center of the planet holding the demons, but instead of getting one Big One you could get many this way. Anyway previous fortress that dig too deep would know about the demons - if you are the first then latter fortresses wouldn't try anymore.
As the end game it is, the demon is in that *mountain* since a time before time. There is one demon per mountain (or one for each one of the 50 sites)so they are not in the center of the planet.
Adamantine in every fortress will make the end game the same it is now.

[Eiba]

Personally, I always thought the civil war bug from the earlier releases would make a really neat endgame.

Perhaps having all your dwarves going insane and begin to kill each other would be an effective prelude to a Demon attack, and would effectively remove the possibility of the Demon being defeated militarily... Drawbridges remain an issue...

It would also just be spectacular and bloody, and the code's already there for it so... Just saying.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Hmmmmmmmmm..

I wonder.

Toady's been making "realistic mineral and rock veins" some time ago, or so I remember. Applied on a global scale, this would give a very neat twist to fortress mode. You can start the game anywhere, but what you encounter and what dangers you'll have to go through to get it will vary. There could be adamantine, mithral, oil, and various other 'special' materials. Normal materials can be present or lacking in quite the same way.

As for fire imps and breathing - well, yeah, they can be skin-breathing, but then submerging them into water should suffocate them. And severely damaging the skin (with acid, should that be implemented, or lots of hammers and whips) should then result in effect similar to damaging the lungs. Gory details, yeah. One of the things I love most in DF. >

[WillNZ]

Alternatively, you could make some endgame options NOT about the destruction of the fortress... for instance, if you make an insanely self-sufficient and xenophobic fortress, you could seal it off from the outside world, allowing the dwarves to live without the intrusion of outsiders for eternity by making some sort of insane Adamantium vault. That seems like a real dwarfy thing to do. Destruction endgames are all well and good, but sometimes it's good to win by achieving a goal.

[Faces of Mu]

OMG! I can't wait for Toady to implement tunnelling creatures other than dwarves! (Seen suggested here by Name Lips, probably a million times over by other posters previously). How awesome it would be for Hairy McGairy to have just gone to bed after a hard days mining and drinking when all of a sudden a carnivorous giant worm bursts through the wall and devours Hairy McGairy and her three children! What joy it would be to have to decide a) seal up the network of tunnels the worm left behind? or b) send in some troops to explore the caves and chop down the worm's family tree?

Sorta gets a bit Dungeon Keeper on that one, but the havoc and surprise such new creatures could sow makes it's exciting all the same. It would certainly be different to building-destroying foes on the outside, or the slightly predictable imps and drakes that you know will turn up somewhere on that magma pool. It's extra nasty that, not only could tunnelers make ruin of your water ways and rooms, but when collapses and cave-ins are reinstated, they could cause some of the biggest destruction you'd ever see other than your own (picture that beautiful underground spire you carved out becoming dust as a single worm eats the pivotal support! Picture that heavy-traffic bridge bustling with dwarves, caravans and animals as a worm suddenly eats away the earth on one side! See the arm of that magnificent statue you carved break and crush the dwarves below as the termites vandalise your creation and make it into honeycomb!)

I would imagine that some worms would be heliophobic and may never breach the surface, while others would openly breach, explore and probably attack. Then they could also be divided into detivores or carnivores across this dimension. A special phenomena could be that the worms deposit a particular cast that could be used in alchemy, medicine, glass production or to add special qualities to metal. For giant worms the cast could be big enough to be a special material itself.

The more I've read about them (wiki), it's a wonder that worms are not incorporated more into dwarven lore!

[Faces of Mu]

Thinking of worms and agriculture, I wonder if Toady will ever make it so that irrigation will only work on soil and not just any rock? It'd be interesting to not only have to find a water source, but also have to connect that source to the only core of soil you've found underground so far some 20-30 squares away.

Currently I don't bother with floodgates if I can just put fortifications in the river wall, so floodgate farming is a bit superfluous to me. Being able to haul and deposit soil would make hauling (and it's associated physical attributes) more necessary.

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by Faces of Mu:
[QB]Thinking of worms and agriculture, I wonder if Toady will ever make it so that irrigation will only work on soil and not just any rock? It'd be interesting to not only have to find a water source, but also have to connect that source to the only core of soil you've found underground so far some 20-30 squares away.

[QB]

Dwarven crops are fungus-like, growing on mud.   They don't really need soil like a tree would.

[Turgid Bolk]

Yeah, I would think if you dumped a bucket of water on a cave floor, you'd only get a wet cave floor. The real vital thing you get from irrigation is soil, nice fertile soil from the river. Gonna be a bit trickier to farm without a guaranteed river, eh?

Also, if giant tunneling worms ever make it in, they will be dwarves' most feared enemies, replacing even skeletal ninja elephants. I mean, at least you can see the elephants coming.

*rumblerumble* "What was th-?" *chomp*

[Faces of Mu]

Hmmmm, I see what yr saying in terms of the dwarven plants needing less layers.

A wet rock though doesn't just dissolve into slosh and mud.

Then again, maybe I'm saying this because I've never been in a mine and seen what the ground is like (they use a lot more water in mines these days than times long ago, yeah??)

[Sean Mirrsen]

quote:Originally posted by Turgid Bolk:
<STRONG>*rumblerumble* "What was th-?" *chomp*</STRONG>

Heh. Graboids, anyone? If I remember correctly they were awakened by miners, in the fourth film.
Except that I don't know how dwarves would deal with them, with the lack of Burt Gummer and explosive RC mini-offroaders.   Thrown butterflies, maybe. Live ones.  

[Thallone]

Idea to prevent players from super-buffing to destroy the Adamantine Demon. Make the demon vulnerable to damage from only one type of metal, and not adamantine. The metal type should be chosen randomly from available bars for each game, possibly each demon if the concept were extended to the smaller demons. So, for example, the Uber-Demon might be vulnerable to Iron one game, steel another, but in a third game only copper weapons can harm it. That way, you're never truly sure that you're ready for the demon.

Imagine the suprise when the only dwarf doing any good is the one with the electrum mace!

[ September 13, 2007: Message edited by: Thallone ]

[thvaz]

There is the problem with the bridges too.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Provided the demon (or The Demon) is flying, and material and creature strength is set and utilized a bit more realistically in the next version, I think there will be no way to "guarantee" victory over the endgame demon(s). They'll shatter the drawbridge if it comes down on them, and fly if it drops beneath them. They are near-impenetrable to most arrows and melt most metals with ease. Cold iron and alchemical silver can be used to harm the demons, but producing them in great quantities is hardly viable.

Also, there could be DIFFERENT demons. Fiery darkness elementals like the balrog, pure "wrath of the Earth" darkstone golems and adamantine giants, evilhearted water and ice elementals, "forces of nature" in form of living underground trees, etc., etc.